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GINart In reply to APatriotAnIdiot [2016-05-18 02:03:37 +0000 UTC]

Funny because, the author isn't even from continental europe... Acusations of "catalan endoctrination"  and lots of anti-catalan ethnicism towards a United Kingdom citizen because he did a fiction map of catalonia...  

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ManinTheHighCastle94 In reply to GINart [2023-03-05 00:29:39 +0000 UTC]

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HouseOfHesse In reply to ElMengu [2014-09-12 18:03:26 +0000 UTC]

I'm curious as to why you think this, because it simply wouldn't be the case. Spain is one of the richest countries in the world, and Catalonia is the richest part of it, so if you think that an independent Catalonia would be 'below misery', what do you imply the rest of Spain would be like? The figures I used to calculate things such as GDP, Per Capita income, and HDI are all based on statistics from the Spanish government, they are not fictitious in any way. Indeed, Catalonia's high wealth and industry paired with a lower population than other Spanish regions, even with the addition of Valencia, Aragon, and the Balearic Islands, would make the average citizen very well off, far better off than they are as part of Spain. One must also consider that the Països Catalans contain's half of Spain's largest cities.
Furthermore, although this map is scenario is hypothetical and would require some sort of agreement with the Spanish government, you seem to be overlooking the status of Kosovo, which is pressing ahead with its EU and Nato membership, despite lack of recognition not only from Serbia, but also from a significant portion of other EU and Nato members.
Finally, I never said that Catalans were an ethnic group, so I'm not sure where you got that from. The Països Catalans refers to the the regions where Catalan is spoken, it is a cultural and linguistic distinction rather than one of ethnicity.

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ManinTheHighCastle94 In reply to HouseOfHesse [2023-03-05 00:35:29 +0000 UTC]

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ElMengu In reply to HouseOfHesse [2014-09-12 19:23:08 +0000 UTC]

Because Catalonia is not the richest part of Spain at all. In fact, it is not even among the first few. Not only that, but it has been becoming worse over the few last years. There is a dying middle class in Catalonia which could arguably be considered the "richest" among the middle classes in Spain, following Madrid's of course, but they represent a small portion of the whole population in the region. Most of the Catalan GDP is national and multinational companies operating in Barcelona, most of which have stated their intentions of fleeing the region and establishing in Madrid if Catalonia ever emancipates. The rest have already fled. One of Barcelona's most profitable and famous businesses, its football club, would not be allowed to play in the Spanish league and would then have to play against... Well, clubs nobody knows about. Mind you, the reason Barcelona has risen as the second Spanish city and one of the most touristic in Europe is F.C. Barcelona, due to making the city known worldwide. Oh and then there is Catalonia's public debt, which is the highest in Spain: [Link]  You may not understand Spanish but the graphics are clear. Also do not forget they would be out of the euro as soon as they achieve independence until Spain says so. Oh and Valencia, part of what Catalans consider the so-called "Paisos Catalans", has the second largest debt. But why does Catalonia has such a large debt? Because of their rulers since the transition to democracy. Corruption in Catalonia is the second highest in Spain and one of the highest in Europe, in fact there is an ongoing corruption case which involves thousands of millions of euros. If separatist Catalan politicians can not manage their region within a larger country, receiving funds from the Spanish Government and being allowed to tax its citizens over as well, how can they be expected to manage their own independent country? To finish, poverty levels in Catalonia are rising at an alarming rate compared to the rest of the country. Again, because of the bad management from the regional government.
As for Kosovo, the case of Catalonia has nothing to do with it. Serbia was and is aligned with Russia, most of the Kosovan population is made up of Albanian immigrants and there were traumatic wars in the region for over a decade. Spain is aligned with NATO (in fact a member), Catalans are genetically just like any other Spaniard (in fact, half the population of Catalonia is made up of Andalusian and Extremaduran second-generation immigrants, which curiously make up the bulk of Catalonian separatists) and there have not been any wars in the region for almost a century. And also Spain is a modern democracy that would never allow one of its parts to simply break away as if nothing, because in that case the whole of the Spanish population would have a say in that matter, not just a part of them. Anyway, he EU and NATO have already said they would never accept membership of Catalonia if Spain does not recognize it, which I tell you we never will.
In the chart, it says "Ethnic groups (2022) 64% Catalan", and well there is no such thing as a Catalan ethnic group. Catalan is indeed a different language (in fact it should be called Valencian, because it originated in modern day Valencia and then spread to the north during the Middle Ages). As for a cultural distinction that is an edgy topic, because Valencians, Aragonese and Balearics do not agree. But anyway, a region in which there is a silent majority who would rather stay within the country they belong to and a not-so-large majority that makes a lot of noise at both national and international levels crying for independence with bold historic and economic arguments, none of which they have been able to prove right; independence seems rather impossible for when over half the population is against it, even if at the moment they do not speak up.

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Ennio444 In reply to ElMengu [2018-03-04 19:02:53 +0000 UTC]

QUOTE++++In the chart, it says "Ethnic groups (2022) 64% Catalan", and well there is no such thing as a Catalan ethnic group. Catalan is indeed a different language (in fact it should be called Valencian, because it originated in modern day Valencia and then spread to the north during the Middle Ages)++++

Most linguists disagree, although I understand that this theory may look reasonable, it makes no sense in the general context of Medieval romance languages. Catalan, as a Gallo-Romance dialect almost indistinguishable from Languedocian Occitan, developed its own phonology and grammatical quirks and spread from the low Pyrinees south, slowly. There are many examples of Catalan being written in the XII and XIIIth Centuries, by Ramon Muntaner, by Francesc Eiximenis, Ramon Llull and King James himself, aside from uncountable everyday documents like testaments and wills, letters and IOUs (the Aragonese archive in Barcelona is one of the biggest Medieval archives in the world, with boxes upon boxes of yet unstudied parchment).

There's also the undoubtable link between Balearic and Empordanese Catalan, both of them using very similar archaic phonology and the "salat" article (Es, Sa istead of El, La). The documents from the time of KIng James show a good chunk of Mallorca was given to the Count of Empuries, who repopulated it with his own people. Valencian is also very close to the Catalan spoken in Lleida and Tarragona, areas that were settled in similar waves with people from the west and south of Catalonia (because the lords who were given lands there had their homesteads mostly on those western and southern areas). Probably the Valencian mossarab had some influence on the language, but the two communities were kept thoroughly separated, as shown in the Partition Charters.

QUOTE++++As for a cultural distinction that is an edgy topic, because Valencians, Aragonese and Balearics do not agree. But anyway, a region in which there is a silent majority who would rather stay within the country they belong to and a not-so-large majority that makes a lot of noise at both national and international levels crying for independence with bold historic and economic arguments, none of which they have been able to prove right; independence seems rather impossible for when over half the population is against it, even if at the moment they do not speak up."++++

In the last election (December 2017) Independentism won by number of seats and of votes, with an 82% turnout. I'm glad this "silent majority" myth has been proven dead. I'm not an independentist, even if I fantasize with the idea, but I dislike manipulation and outright lies, and the "silent majority" was a lie from the beginning. 

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oigolue In reply to Ennio444 [2018-06-19 15:58:19 +0000 UTC]

Catalan can't be from valencia because it comes from occitania and occitania is on the north of catalonia xDDD it's a spanish nationalist myth

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ElMengu In reply to Ennio444 [2018-03-04 19:54:59 +0000 UTC]

Separatist political parties won by a number of seat but not by a number of votes. Were Catalonia a single constituency, loyal political parties would have gotten more seats in the regional parliament than separatist parties, as per total number of votes. D'Hondt favours greatly the less populated rural areas in Lérida and Gerona, which granted separatist parties more seats than they would be entitled to should the electoral system be directly proportional. The silent majority is real and no amount of carefully guided separatist propaganda efforts can change that fact; if anything, the silent majority is shyly stopping to be silent, but it never stopped being a majority.

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Ennio444 In reply to ElMengu [2018-04-15 14:54:00 +0000 UTC]

Look at the number of votes. 2,079,340 votes for independence, 1,902.061 against. According to last December election. Count the votes, parties specifically for independence got some 80.000 votes more. It's a very narrow majority, but so far, independentists have the upper hand when it comes to electoral legitimacy.

Of course, Podemos and other parties not speficially for or against independence can't be counted in one or another side... we won't solve this until we get a referendum. There will probably be a "no" victory and the independentists will shut up, defeated and broken. Also, the "no" campaign, which has the full force of the law on its side, and of Spanish legimiacy as well, can be civil and productive, and propose solutions for real problems (when half the population of a place wants to leave, you HAVE a problem, and waving the law in front of everyone's faces is not gonna cut it as a solution. People get tired of the old "qué pone en tu DNI" argument) and not a campaign based on lies (families broken apart or terrorist cells), exagerations (the rebellion charges against the leading politicians, the supposed indoctrination, which is no different than the indoctrination students go through in any other educational system, except that in the US they teach them the anthem, and I was never tought any anthem in school)... 

The "No" campaign would have a real chance to be conciliatory, modern and have the moral high ground, but because it's probably the one which will win, I guess no real solution will be presented. Rajoy doesn't like to act until it's very late (sometimes too late).

I think we both can agree on this: there is a crisis in Catalonia, and now an apparent half of the population want secession. Batons and jail sentences are not gonna solve this. A referendum is needed to see where we stand on this. No Spanish government will ever propose it, or vote for it, but we do need it if we want this solved. Right?

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ElMengu In reply to Ennio444 [2018-04-15 16:49:48 +0000 UTC]

There is a problem alright. The problem is this type of rancid nationalism has been allowed to spread rampant for many decades, on the crutches of public regional media and decentralized education, yielding generation after generation of new separatists. That coupled with the propaganda effort overseas in the form of public diplomacy to gain foreign support for an illegitimate and illegal cause, gone completely unchecked, and the very existence of the autonomic system itself. That's on Spanish statists, no doubt. But the fact that this has led to the current situation doesn't mean that separatists should have their way and be allowed to go that extra kilometre in their irrational goal to break up a country. Referendums, to start with, solve nothing. If emancipation lost in that hypothetical case, another push for independence would be 10 to 15 years down the road, and the situation would go on indifinitely until they get the results they want. The drive always exists when the goal is to change the status quo, not to keep it the same.

The only solution in the short-term is to enforce the law, putting each and every criminal who staged and took a prominent part in the separatist coup in prison. Thankfully, for the sake of democracy and the European project, this seems to be happening. The mid-term solution would be reverting the mistake of breaking up the education system and centralizing it, as it should have always remained, while at the same time closing down the regional TVs and radios which should have never existed in the first place, disbanding the regional police and enforcing that little ignored article in the Constitution; the one about Spanish and every Spaniard having the right and duty to know it. Unfortunately, this isn't being the case, but hope is what's last lost and the rest of the country is reaching breaking point when it comes to patience for separatist tantrums. A long-term solution that would end the entire separatist bad joke, along with many other nationwide problems with it, would be to outright end the autonomic system and have a proper centralized state. Nonetheless, Catalonian emancipation not only is illegal and illegitimate, but at this point impossible too. So there's only one way this affair can go if not the status quo remaining as it is.

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Ennio444 In reply to ElMengu [2018-07-23 21:28:14 +0000 UTC]

You're not adressing any of my points. You're just arguing for yourself or venting out. By all means, go on, but at some point, adress my points. 

I will adress yours, though:

"Rancid nationalism", the same can be said of ANY nationalism. Spanish included. All nations indocrinate, all nations yield generation after generation of "their nationals" through confortable narratives and transcendental identities. Spain is no different. The only thing here is that you don't like that Catalonia has developed (at least, for some) a sense of its own nation. It was, as you say, Spain's fault. After all, some of the most prominent Spanish politicians of the 19th Century were Catalans (although many were federalists, and then many were comunists...). But not by "artificial means". The Occitan identity in France was a construct, but so is the Cosmopolitan French identity. So is Spanish, British, German identity. They're all a mix of government attempts at homogeneization and the people's own will to identify with a "tribe". The Byzantines had a remedy for these tribalisms: forceful recolocation of population. Let's spread them out and their rebelliousness will disappear with their identity. Sure enoguh, it happened, but that was far from humane or legtitimate.

"Referendums solve nothing". On the contrary, they give us valuable information and they enact the will of the people. Whether the people are, or not, misguided, is not for you to decide, or me. How's to say we're not misguided. We're either democrats, or we aren't. I won't claim democracy is perfect, but it's one system where we can enjoy freedom of speech, which, to me, is one of our most precious treasures.

And, if referendums solve nothing, then is the solution just forcing separatists to shut up? Great, because that has always worked, right? If Spain goes that road, you've got to choose China or Russia, because thar's the political climate we're headed if we trade political pillars for trump cards (no pun intended) that "solve" issues we disagree with. Half of a region believes in something you seem to loathe. So what? Either you try and convince them (I've yet to see a campaign to do so), or you negotiate (again, still waiting, on both fronts).

"The only solution in the short-term is to enforce the law", sure.

"putting each and every criminal who staged and took a prominent part in the separatist coup in prison" There you're treading on more dangerous waters. If we twist the law in order to fit in there peaceful demonstration as "coup d'état" or "rebellion", where will we draw the line? 

"enforcing that little ignored article in the Constitution" You're all for defending the Constitution, good.

"the one about Spanish and every Spaniard having the right and duty to know it" Everyone does. If you think the contrary, then it's you who's been drinking cooked up news stories and fake news (sorry for using the term). I live there and I've yet to find someone who didn't know Spanish. Spanish you can learn just by living here, everything is in Spanish; most of the TV, most of the literature, all of YouTube and the Internet (when it's not in English). The argument that "they don't learn Spanish" is just a lie. They study more hours in Catalan because it's a way to balance the juggernaut influence Spanish has on everyday life. Every Spaniard has the right and duty to know Spanish, and we sure do. Just look at Selectividad statistics, which autonomies are at the bottom? It's not Catalonia, which this year scored the ninth on average of all the other CCAA in Spanish language. The story is on EFE, if you want to check it out. It's not only the seventh of nineteen, it's also the best among other CCAA with other co-oficial languages. And we thought that things were being done the right way in PP-controled Baleares and Valencia...



Offer a good devomax-like deal and many on-the-fence separatists will flock again towards the Spanish side. Repress them and they'll breed discontent and resentment, and this will go on and on. Repression has never worked, unless absolute and ruthless. Have we learned nothing from History?

Closing down TV's, re-centralising an education system that has, so far, worked well (only because people have opinions different than yours doesn't mean they are wrong or ill-eduated), you seem to be all for doing things your way, no matter what others say. You claim to defend the Constituion but want the part that protects the autonomies expunged. Other parts, they're ok, but this one, out. Why aren't other parts up for debate?

A document says Spain is indivisible, for example. This document is the Constitution, that you think can be changed. But not ALL of it, just the parts you don't agree with, or you think they're problematic. Separatists, they want the same, essentially, just for different reasons. Just because you want to prevent their separation (if they ever decided on whether they want it or not) doesn't mean they can't separate, if they so wish it.

You say independence is illegal. Sure, under current law. However, all revolutions were illegal. You say it's illegitimate. We don't know that, yet. As I said, that's one of the problems, when you're done exposing arguments to yourself and refute my own arguments, maybe then we can have a conversation.

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