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TurnerMohan — Glorfindel and Ecthelion
Published: 2014-05-09 09:22:41 +0000 UTC; Views: 43454; Favourites: 498; Downloads: 294
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I thought I'd try some elven armor after my recent pen-and-marker work on the dwarves and men of numenor; consider this another entry in some huge middle-earth historic costume catalogue (a project which, god help me, I seem to be more or less actively engaging at this point)In addition to Tolkien's descriptions of tall, pointed helmets, the elves are always remarked to wear very fine maille, form-fitting, light and (of course) unexpectedly strong. really most of tolkien's descriptions of armor (barring a rare curiosity like the numenorean "karma" helmet) seem to be typically dark age/vikingish maille shirts and conical sprangenhelms, and I thought it'd be worth trying with the elves (especially those of the Eldar Days) to ignore all impulses toward more elaborate high-fantasy design and just take him close at his word. Ecthelion's corslet here is of scales rather than chain, and the collar is higher than you'd see on a dark-age shirt, but other than that "cut" of it is pretty much in the historic cannon. as always with the elves i wanted to give them a sort of superhuman elegance of lines and forms, despite the archaic look of their raiment. they're like vikings but not, and i imagine (or would like to imagine) that when the vikings themselves spun their stories of the great, tall, immortal "Alfir" maybe this is something like what they would have had in mind.
This piece started as simply an anonymous "costume plate" for the kind of armor commonly worn by the first age noldor, but I had extra room on the page to do a second figure, and I thought it was high time for the two great balrog-slayers of antiquity (a very rare distinction, unprecedented even, depending on the text you're going from) to get their own picture. Glorfindel and Ecthelion interest me because, for one, unlike almost all other named noldorian characters in the silmarillion, they are not members of the house of Finwe; they're not royals (it don't run in their blood
) rather, they are Turgon's guards and loyal retainers, and seem to share this profound connection with one another; they are often mentioned as a unit, they escorted Aredhel (unsuccessfully) together, and they each killed (and were killed in turn by) a balrog on the same day (again, a feat which, depending on what source you go on, seems had never been accomplished by anyone - not even feanor, fingolfin or fingon - up to that point) I like to think of them as classical "greek companions" like Achilles and Patrocolus or Alexander and Hephaestean; close, devoted friends or possibly even lovers (there seem to be several iterations of this in tolkien's writing, Meadhros and Fingon, Merry and Pippin, and Frodo and Sam all share elements of it) they compete to bring out the best in each other, even up to the very end, where Glorfindel, in sacrificing himself to save the refugees of gondolin an take out this timeless, near-insurmountably powerful servant of evil, will get to meet his friend in the Halls of Mandos, having matched his matchless deed. I don't know why but while working on this it occurred to me to give them pointed shoes, it's fun to think that, after all the names of the great elven kings and heroes and cities had been long forgotten by men, this one incidental detail of their garmentry (possibly even one limited to the noldor of gondolin) would survive in nursery rhymes well into the fourth age and beyond.
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Comments: 53
hello Turner, i really love the work! it's unique and unusual. my friend wrote an article about elves of middle-earth in our wechat subscripions (a chinese facebook or blogspot), he asked if he could use your work as an illustration for free? we'd put your name by the work. thanks anyway X
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Well it's probably the miniatures I'm doing but I'm fighting to find a way to represent this drawing on a 25 mm scale (given the range disponibles). I'm sure I will be able to but I have to come back to this painting once again (not the last one I'm sure).
The hardest part will probably be to represent this corinthian-spangerhelm (I prefer the shape of these two than the one you did for Caranthir by the way). I'm thinking about combining the helmet of the movie-elves with a norman helmet and then copying the result.
I have that idea that the Noldor, or at least the Gondolindrim, all have decorated crests. Kinda like their own abstract version of medieval-crest (like their emblems are an abstract version of medieval-heraldry with complicated rules). We know Ecthelion has a spike on the top of his helmet, but Egalmoth is also mentionned (in War of the Jewels) to have a name that could mean "a spike upon a flowered crest" so I agree with your depiction of all helmets of Gondolin having spikes but with different decorations, Ecthelion just having the privilege of a diamond in top of it.
Now I know that a "flowered crest" is a pretty odd design but I'm sure you can do something interisting with that.
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I am re-reading the Lost Tales recently and I suddenly remembered a detail that I checked... and behold, I think you'll like it, it's about Tinfang Warble, who is basically the first Elf Tolkien ever wrote about (the first poem about Tinfang was written in 1914 even though he was called a "Lechpraun" at that time), though he has allready many elements that will remain specific to his Elves (the relation to the stars of course but also the white hair, the "shadowy coat", and the blue lamp). Here is the sixth sthrophe of the last version of the poem :
His slim little body went fine as a shade
And he slipped through the reeds like a mist in the glade;
And he laughed like thin silver, and piped a thin note,
As he flapped in the shadows his shadowy coat.
O! The toads of his slippers were twisted and curled,
But he danced like a wind out into the world.
I see that as a proof that our constant research has led us to a level of comprehension of Tolkien's aesthetic so accurate than when we invent things (either in your drawings or in my wargame rules) it's something he allready imagined.
I was always persuaded that Orcs used hornbows but I had only one evidence (the hornbow used by the "snuffler" in the Lord of the Ring) but three clues : the "caricature of mongols" together with the usual weaponry of that people (scimitars, spears, and hornbows), the description of the Uruks using "short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs : and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men" (leading me to think most Orcs used a different type of bow as well), and finnally the hornbow used by Thorin (quite weird for a vikingish-people) which remembers that the size of the Orcs may be the main reason for which they have to use short-reflex-bows. But I recently bumped in a sentence in the Lost Tales where hornbows are mentionned : the simple fact that Tolkien used the same word to describe orcbows in two texts separated by almost three decades make me think I was right since the beggining.
And if you are not convinced of the exactitude of your guess just look at that picture by J.R.R. himself 
users.abo.fi/jolin/tolkien/fan…
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I would totally buy your art if you ever decided to publish it as an artbook. Have been lurking through your designs, and I really admire your vision for Tolkien's universe.
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"I thought it'd be worth trying with the elves (especially those of the Eldar Days) to ignore all impulses toward more elaborate high-fantasy design and just take him close at his word." And I love that you did and what you did with it. This is very close to my own vision of it in that respect. It also has a lovely storybook quality to it... meaning, it reminds me of something I've seen before... several somethings. It just feels right that way. (I think it's the pen. You have a very nice light technique.)
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thank you! I'mglad you like it. that old storybook composition was something i was going for
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Take a look at this Turner: www.oakandacorn.com/hostedimag…
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that's the kind of thing i'm talking about.
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This one amazes me!
I love the subtle colors, and specially the way you draw the scales. i made a little try here but my sucess was limited. Any hint about how to draw a masterfull coat of scales? The details that i like most are Echtelion's belt (sash) and sword scabbard, the vambraces and the leaf decorations on his arms. The overall look is very original and different, his armour is much more like a mantle, an actual suit of clothing rather then a rigid and solid look you expect from a suit of armor. This is very elven, unhindering, form fitting, light and wearable. I really like the freshness of the concept here. Both armors arte inspired in early medieval style, but you managed to stand out of the original reference in a new and beliveable way. Again, right on spot. Glorfindel's cape is so well drawn, with so beautiful lines that it is a pleasure to look upon.
Very nice drawing, I love it.
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thanks bro, as always your comments are a great delight!
i like the way you describe the mantle-like quality of ecthelion's armor, that's something i was really going for. elven things (especially armor and gear) is always described as light and deceptively strong for it's weight, and I really wanted the elvs in armor to look like dancers, with these form fitting hoes and soft (looking) shoes, silks and sashes, like japanese samurai, instead of buckled leather belts (that seems like more a dwarven/mannish thing) and these maille shirts that sit on them more like cloth than rigid armor. I was also going for a slightly folded, layered look, like where, at the endof the sleeves one part appears to be coming out from under the other, that along with the leaf-like zigzaging of the "cut" of the shirt at the end of the sleeves and along the bottom edge, was intended (like the pointed shoes) to give the figure some of these classically "elvish" (in the fairy tale sens of the word) feel, like peter pan in his tunic of leaves, only on a six and a half foot tall warrior
as for the scale armor (which i find imminently more satisfying to draw than chainmaille) the strategy i've been going with for these pen drawings (as you could probably infer) is to do these in pencil first, ink them over, and erase the pencil lines underneath, but i try not to make the pencil work too detailed (i think the end product comes out alot better if you treat the pen part of the job like art and not like tracing) for the scales i'll usually just map out the direction they're going to go in with diagonal, cross hatching pencil lines, and then go over them in pen, i dont always stick to the pencil lines, but it helps to have them there to gve a sense of the angle and direction the pen lines should be going in (if you follow me) and then i'll go back in with the pen and pick out certain scales, or clusters of them, to define with the pen, which makes it look more 3D, and less like a pattern of cross hatching, (that's how i did these anyway, the larger scales on the dwarven armor was a little different process) you'll notice on some areas, like ecthelion's left thigh above the knee, which is a highlighted area, i left the area blank with no scale detail, that's a good way to do highlights in pen, i think, it would all look to rigid and over-drawn otherwise.
you'll also notice that the "flank" areas on the outside of ecthelion's legs are different, originally these were going to be lamed, plate armor leg guards sitting ontop of the scale (or perhaps attached to the mail harness, sort of a "scale plate" look similar to the "chain plate" armor i've been doing with the dwarves) like the lamed leg defenses worn by the movie-lothlorien elves at helm's deep, and I even inked them in that way, but they stood out a bit too much, so i found, following their own flowing lines, i was able to break them up into these scalloping scales themselves, which sweep up to small lame segments on the sides. That brings me to something that i wanted to touch on about my thoughts concerning elven armor (both scale and chainmaille) that though the overall viking-like silhouette of their maille shirts is similar to those worn by men (barring those little "peter pan" touches) elves are artists with their armor on a whole other level that men cant really imitate, and (I don't know how much you know about chainmaille and the different tailoring patterns but I've made a good amount of the stuff myself) i was thinking that elves' armor is made using rings and scales of sutly different sizes and shapes, depending on where on the body they are going, inotherwords, they follow the form of the wearer like a super finely tailored suit, being flexible where they need to be, and more rigid where they need to be, whereas with man made maile (and scale) the rings are made (as they almost always were in real life) on dowels of uniform size and shape, and i would think that man-made maille would be pretty well restricted to the tailoring patterns used by vikings (the tailoring pattern we've both used in our depictions of turin and in this Chainmail Shirt i made myself) where the maille only goes in one direction over the whole body, and the sleeves are just a continuation of the torso, only now hanging sideways (this is pretty much the only way you ever see enthusiasts and hobbyists making maille shirts today, because it's the easiest way, doesnt require a lot of know-how) whereas with the elves i can see them doing "tapered" maille work, where the maille is expanded/contracted where it needs to be by the inclusion of a fifth ring, includes (and all emenates from) a high collar, and has the maile on the arms going in the same direction as that on the toso. that's something you started to see in crusader/ medieval maille work and, combined with the elven eye for detail, it should follow the body (pinching in the small of the back and other choice areas) to give the wearer almost the appearence of wearing a second skin of metal. additionally i would imagine detailing, somethimes gilding, of the individual rings themselves. when the armor of the gondolindrim is described as being worth more thean the ransom of any king of men, I want there to be a reason for that
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As I recently began to work on some miniatures I find your thougts on Elven/Elvish (?) armor very inspiring.
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Thanks for the tips Turner, I understand what you meant here. I'll practice to incorporate some of those techniques in my own work.
Your ideas about elven maille and armor in general are very inspiring. I have some thoughts about it and even more about dwarven maille, I hope I manage to draw some of it soon.
I did not saw a lot of real armor in my life, but I made a 4x1 hauberk out of butted rings, and also made some patches of 6x1, 8x1 and Persian style mesh, as well some different Japanese patterns including different sized rings. So I can really imagine a suit where many different patterns are used together and with great levels of mastery! It is a shame that a simple drawing cannot show that kind of detail. Nonetheless you managed to pass that feeling in your drawing. The general sense of such high level of details but without actually showing it. Nicely done Turner.
This drawing is one of my favorites I am looking forward to see more stuff where you show your ideas about armor and arms. You are just great at it.
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Wow, you've made a mail Hauberk, I'll tell you man, we do think alike
it's a shame indeed, what I would really want, ideally, is to just have such a maille shirt, one i could wear and examine and paw over with a magnifying glass, but at present (and for the forseeable future) I dont have the skill to pull off such a thing (I am however attempting to rework my mail shirt with some tapering, long sleeves, and a high collar) I'm really glad you think the drawing manages to convey that, even though you cant see it.
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Awesome art. I really love how you're combining Tolkien's descriptions with actual weaponry and armor from Northern European history (from the "Beowulfic" Dark Age that the professor loved, no less) and create a really convincing image of what the Silmarillion characters must have looked like. They like towering figures from Nordic legend, really striking. Tolkien was always sparse with his visual descriptions, since he always wrote in the terse, minimalistic style of Germanic myths. So it's pretty obvious that you'd take those myths (and the real-life culture they came from) as the inspiration to "fill in the gaps".
Interesting that you brought up Achiless and Patroclus as well, since the Homeric legends were basically the Mediterranean's "heroic age", their version of Beowulf and the Icelandic sagas. (I guess the Middle-earth equivalent is the Noldor Elves as the "Ancient Greek heroes" of the First Age, and human races such as the Rohirrim/Anglo-Saxons having their own heroic age when LOTR is set in a much later era.)
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Thank you, and yes, most of the time when i draw tolkien related stuff, i try to draw inspiration from the look and feel of the myths that inspired him, and the cultures that produced them; middle-earth (or the parts of it most extensively covered in the silm, the hobbit and the lotr) seems a very ancient germanic/nothern eurpean place aesthetically. though sparse in his descriptions, i think that tolkien, by little cues here and there, gives you a pretty solid, comprehensive picture of what middle-earth should look and feel like.
i tend to think, though there is this germanic "lense" through which everything in middle earth is taken, tolkien was really good at hitting those really broad, pan-mythological notes; manwe for example being basically this calssic skyfather, both odin and zeus (which are themselves mythical figures that share a common origin) at the same time, or how morgoth is kind of both satan and loki at once, and plenty of the legendary events in middle-earth, particularly those of the heightened First Age, feel like they draw as much inspiration from the myths of the greeks (like the oediphal turin, or the chaining of maedhros, containing shades of promtheus) as they do from nordic mythology. really the way I usually look at it is like tolkien's world is the one that lies behind and in some ways makes sense of the myths that we have only received in broken, confused fragments from cultures like the greeks, romans, celts or germanic people. tolkien being an englishman (and endeavoring, as he remarked, to create a mythology for england) it seems as I said above that the aesthetic lense of his fictional world is a very northern one, but it is, i believe, conscious of its other influences and the connections between them.
so nice to recieve a long, thought provoking comment like yours. i'm glad you like the drawing
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Cool, thanks for the reply-to-the-reply, lol. I agree that Tolkien's Arda seems to have a generally Germanic aesthetic, since Tolkien's original idea was to recreate an English mythology. (If I remember right, the Lost Tales books even have the narrative device of an Anglo-Saxon mariner getting lost in the western ocean and ending up on Tol Eressea, where he hears the stories and myths of the Elves.) So, yeah, the overall "lens" of Middle-earth seems to belong to a colder, northern, Germanic aesthetic sense.
There's definitely something pan-mythological about Tolkien's world - there's Maedhros and the Greek myths, Turin and the Finnish legend of Kullervo, etc etc. And he was also a deeply religious Catholic, which influences his whole "legendarium" for better or worse. (Tolkien's Catholicism is the reason you don't see any well-developed fictional religions in LOTR - all his heroic characters were written as "virtuous pagans", like Dante's portrayal of Virgil. Much like Dante or the anonymous bard of Beowulf, the professor obviously couldn't make his characters Christian since they lived in a pre-Christian mythic age, but neither did he want to make them un-Christian.) Something to keep in mind.
Anyways, your drawings are really interesting. Looking forward to more of your Numenor stuff.
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Here they are; the greatest warriors of all time. Great.
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they're certainly high in the running (feanor and his were usually better at killing other elves than balrogs
glad you like it
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Fantastic design again. And you managed to combine the yellow and the green together into something acceptable 
And again I admire the way you draw all the loose yet perfect lines, in all your recent images.
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Now imagine that you are Brazilian and that the flower yellow and green of grass vibrant and horrible combination of colours are on your flag 
brrrrrr
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Hey, that's not that bad! It works different way on a flag than it does on clothing
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Hah! Thanks, but this is an Ugly-ass flag
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glorfindel has a very medieval catholic/saint patricks day color scheme (not something i intended, but that's what it looks like to me now) i think green-and-gold works as a color scheme (actually i tried to keep both the green and gold pretty washed-out here, it seems like the the loftier someone is in tolkien's world, the closer they are to existig in greyscale
thank you for the lovely comment, espectially your remarks about my linework ("loose-yet-perfect" is the only good way to do pen work, i find, and while i dont think i'm there yet, it's sure good to hear you think so 
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Oooh, just wonderful! I was very eager for you to venture into Elven ground, because I've never really been able to have a clear mental image of Elven armaments! I think their gear from the movies, despite being aesthetically appealing, doesn't have a very practical appearance, and lack this historical, "could-have-been" quality you managed to convey, in a perfect blend of practicality and alien-like beauty. Yes, Alfir indeed!!! I especially like the flower attached to Glorfindel's banner, a nice reminder that he's the Lord of the House of the Golden Flower. And I like the fact that you took inspiration (at least partly) from the Elven helms of the movie, adding some Viking toughness to them - again, a perfect blend! My only regret is that you didn't show Ecthelion's shield, "a shield that shimmered as if it were bedewed with drops of rain, that were indeed a thousand studs of crystal". Do you think that Glorfindel, after his rebirth to Middle-Earth and his subsequent move to Rivendell, had the craftsmen of Imladris forge gear similar to the one he used in his Gondolin days (at least stylistically, since the craft to make such mighty tools was surely lost)?
By the way, I've read two different fanfics of Gandalf and Elrond discussing the origins of Orcrist - curiously enough, one of them asserted that its previous owner was Glorfindel, and the other one said Ecthelion! So we can expect to see a rendition of Thorin Oakenshield with a sword reminiscent of the one wielded by the Lord of the Fountain in this piece?
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well i'm pretty in awe of the films' "elven style" (though really more as seen in alan lee's drawings and paintings, like for the "children of hurin" chapter illustrations, than how they appeared in the films, too standardized) but i am quite pleased with how these came out, and glad that the often plain-seeming "long mail shirts" tolkien is constantly referencing reads so nicely and doesnt seem boring (the events of the Eldar days are the very heart of the romantic, ancient germanic-style legends tolkien was so passionate about; he stated writing tales like the fall of gondolin as a young man enamoured with those real-world historical myths and legends, and so i've often thought that, from a design point of view, the world of the silmarillion can (and should) be a less "original" world than middle earth as presented at the time of the hobbit and LOTR (by which time the world seems to have become more it's own thing in the author's mind)
the helmets do indeed owe a dept to the movies, like those (as you can probably tell) i was going for a stylistic cross between the classic ancient greek corinthian helmets and the germanic spangenhelms, leaning a little more heavily over into germanic territory than the films did. I would have loved to show ecthelion's shield, but at the time i was laying out the figure i didn't have it in mind that this would be ecthelion specifically, it's a shame, as such a magnificent article really deserves a front-shot, and i don't know when i'll be doing ecthelion again. i'm glad you picked up on glorfindel's white rose there 
as for orcrist I've heard thoeries that the "famous blade" as elrond calls it was either ecthelion or glorfindel's sword (and theories that sting was either a sidearm for one or the other, or possibly a knife belonging to young earendil) if i were to do orcrist it would most likely be in that greek/nordic (rather than medieval) canon.
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First of i really like this idea of yours to make a "middle-earth historic costume catalogue", and i really encourages you to do one!
I like their armor, it looks practical and still unique. And i really like the ribbons on his upper arms, sort of Baroque
Also pointy ears and pointy shoes, it's fun and clever!
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yes yes yes yes a thousand times YES on that remark about the elves as lean 17th century nobles, as it's something I've thought since basically forever (and was actually planning to mention to you in response to one of your earlier comments about the "masculinity" of tolkien's writing) I think tolkien enjoyed and often wrote a kind of aristocratic badassery; (popular from ancient greece and medieval japan pretty much up until the last century, and sadly going out of fashion in our age of increasingly thuggish portrayals of "tough men") his world is populated by all these keen eyed, balls-of-steel young noblemen (or noble-elves) who are this combination (all but lost on the likes of "300" and the ufc) of being effete but also genuinely formidable and dangerous (much more so than the sinewy, brutal but not very skilled ape-like orcs)
in this regard tolkien is different from the more viceral, pulpy stylings of howard, and i think it can at times come off a little too cold-blooded for modern tastes, but i love it (and he does give us a hefty helping of genuine blood and guts style brawling, usually from the dwarves or some natural fighter like hurin)
glad you like the pointy shoes
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Oh... Now i'm interested! I love the 17th century
I have nothing against the "aristocratic badassery" more the contrary! And the reason it has disappeared, i blame the Brits!
Take the Crimea war, the charge of the light brigade, for example.
Altho as you know i love the barbaric, savage strength in characters like Conan for example.
It's like last episode of Game Of Thrones(dunno if you watch it? but i think you mentioned that you did, way back) were Arya does this fancypants fencing, and the Hound mocks her for it. And basically mean that all that fancy shit dont stand against a man in armour, in the end it all comes to brute force.
And i was a kid when i read the Hobbit and i don't remember how the elves are described as fighters. But in the LOTRs movies i find the elves a bit to fancy almost nacy like... Which for me is like watching a skinny girl wielding a scottish claymore, if you know what i mean?
I'm not sure i follow you here... Who is coming off as "too cold blooded"? Tolkien or Howard?
I don't remember Tolkien as very bloody at all... But then again it was ages ago, and thanks to talking with you i'm realising that Tolkien has a "masculine" way of writing as well.
And about the thuggish-badass... Well i like anti-heroes and all those rugged character(Marv,Conan, The man with no name, to mention a few) but these days, Their supposed to be so "cool" that their just ridiculous, like the Furious movies, hahaha they're a bunch of sissies in fast cars...
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Oh man, these are wonderful! Totally accomplished a more settled and not overused fantasy style. Would love to see these guys in action!
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thank you my friend. so would i.
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Now this is battle-splendour fit for the Noldor indeed and moreover a peerless display of the craft in Gondolin that made it the greatest city of the Elves East of Aman (it's hard not to see the Fall of Gondolin as echoing the Fall of Rome, although whether it's fall to the Gauls or to the Goths I'm not sure); I'm also terribly amused by the idea of the pointy shoes of elves being an actual folk memory of the Eldar preserved even after the last white ship sailed and the last of the singers went away into the Earth, but am glad to see that the shoes actually work in context (and rather beautifully I must say).
I'm also a little intrigued by the idea that Ecthelion of the Fountain and Lord Glorfindel have a sort of Achilles-and-Patroclus relationship, but although I cannot really speak for them and I'm not brave enough to argue with an army of fangirls (not where they can find me out anyway), I still suspect that anyone trying to uncover anything more than the fact that Merry and Pippin are pretty much the Middle-Earth equivalent of fraternity brothers (and Bros to boot) are doomed to disappointment!
While you have said before - and I am inclined to agree with you, in fact - that the various First Age realms of the Noldor in Exile would differ in appearance only in detail, would I be correct in deducing that the Grey Elves and the Green Elves would look rather more different in terms of costume and equipment? (given their different lifestyles I suspect that the Elves of Doriath and Ossiriand would be rather different not only from the Noldor but from one another to boot - the first being a more settled people, the latter nomadic hunter-gatherers from what I understand).
Please permit me to close Master Mohan, by saying that your work continues to improve from the already high standard I observed in it prior to this date; it just goes to prove that even Weta Workshop make bone-headed bad calls when it comes to failing to hire such an artist! (this verges perilously close on flattery, I know, but please accept it as sincere for I truly DO admire your work).
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I beleive i mentioned to you once before that i enjoy this breakdown of the eldar whereby the high elves are more like the norse "alfir;" these tall, fierce, regal creatures, mighty kings and warriors, the moriquendi are generally more like the mercurial, mysterious celtic conception of the "fair folk" (the teleri, i suppose have a foot in both worlds) an within the class of "dark elves," i kind of picture the sindar as these more settled, "civilized" type of celtic-influenced folk, they wear beautiful clothes and make beautiful things (though they're more alien to grounded human sensibilities than the also alien but comparatively straightfroward, appolonian noldor) whereas the sylvan elves are almost like white indians; more like the early roman recounting of celtic folk as these mysterious, not-benign people. i picture them as swift in the woods, dangerous (it'd be pretty amazing, for example to see a scene in a movie that took tolkien at his word about the elves of ossiriand hunting the no doubt more adanced "civilized" dwarves like game) and really feral, maybe even painting their bodies and going partially naked. Tolkien had a very mixed relationship with all things celtic, and I guess you could say that the catholic irish (of which he was apparently very fond and thought represented the best of celticness) are like the sindar, having been "brought up" a little, spiritually, by the prescence of melian and the rule of thingol (who is not himself a "dark elf") whereas the sylvan elves are more that untamed, un-enlightened and (in tolkien's veiw, inwhich "enlightenment" is almost always a good thing) less "good" end of the celtic spectrum. inspired by writing this i may endeavor to make a costume plate of one of each people, presented alongside one another to highlight the contrast.
as for glorfindel and ecthelion, i think the comparrison to achilles and patrocolus more or less speaks for itself, and I don't think you have to worry about incurring the wrath of fangirls; if you type in "glorfindel and ecthelion" on the deviant search, almost all of the images you'll find are a whole lot more openly fruity than this one
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My dear fellow, concerning Fan Girls I was more worried about them tearing me apart like a bacchanalia of Maenads for trying to point out that the most slash-friendly interpretation of a friendship between gentlemen is not necessarily the correct one! (I may not know much about how that sort of Fan thinks, but I DO know just enough to be aware that the 'Net is dark and full of terrors).
I did indeed recall your idea for the High Elves being more Norse, while the Green and the Grey Elves would be more Celtic, but I was interested in learning more about how you would work that into the character designs for the natives of Doriath and Ossiriand (I am, by the way, very grateful for your patience with my 'Thank you for answering that question sir; may I please ask another?' style of curiosity - Thank you once again Master Mohan!).
I've been thinking a bit about them myself and it struck me that the Green Elves might best be thought of as a 'Dawn of Man' culture of hunter-gatherers (albeit I suspect they have a specific taboo against hunting furred beasts, as opposed to fish or fowl or even insects), nomads by custom and quite possibly a little older on average than the Noldor - individuals (or their descendants) who thought 'Life could be worse' when the summons to Aman came and therefore decided to stick with what they knew well rather than break their run of good luck by breaking away from their accustomed habits and lifestyle; I agree with the idea that the Grey Elves, especially those under Thingol Greycloak would be a somewhat more advanced, for I think of them as a sort of 'Dawn of Civilisation' culture with some agriculture, but also a considerable investment in the hunter-gatherer and a slightly more formal organisation (perhaps one might say that they stand in relation to the Green Elves in somewhat the same way the Iroquois Confederacy or the Maya stood in relation to the Hunter-Gatherers of the Amazon?).
I do agree with a lot of your ideas (I suspect that the dwarves hunted by the elves are likely to have been lumberjacks who got a bit too overconfident in their ability to make the original inhabitants of those tall trees an offer they couldn't refuse - also that the Grey Elves owe their somewhat more settled culture as much to the influence of the Khazad as to memories of Aman), although I happen to think that if you were to depict the Green Elves as painting themselves, it might be more sensible to depict it as a form of camouflage more than decoration (which might actually explain why they were called Green Elves in the first place, now I come to think of it!).
I do agree with the idea that would be a bit less elaborate in terms of costume than the Grey Elves, but suspect that this means minimal clothing (perhaps only a tunic or some form of wrap?) rather than NO clothing, since Middle-Earth frequently seems to be on the cool side of temperate, especially when Morgoth uses his power to incept a 'Little Ice Age' to increase the miseries of his foes.
One idea that struck me is that whereas the Noldor might wear their hair long, in a series of elegant-yet-practical binds, the Sindar would favour shorter hair - being a people more invested in the Earth practicalities of life, rather than the more aesthetic Noldor - and also that they would favour the sort of natural materials one cultivates or picks up (wood, stone, plant fibres etc) over the sort of materials which must be crafted (perhaps even to the point where padded armour is favoured over metal, at least by the border-wardens).
I admit that this is all natter, but I hope that it is at least Amusing (or better yet interesting); I also hope that the Elves of Guarded Kingdom and The Wild share their more Classical cousins fondness for pointy shoes! (I admit, the idea continues to appeal to me, not least because it pleases my perverse sense of humour).
Stay Well!
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I don't know if it was Turner's thougts or not but the idea of Glorfindel and Ecthelion as lovers isn't that much of a fantasy for fan-girls (compared to the Fingon & Maedhros affair) but works a lot better : Tolkien never thougt about them as married (opposite to Fingon), even if of course being married and having an homosexual affair wasn't a problem for the people of Alexander's time, they also both live in the same city, and funnilly Glorfindel sacrificed himself after Ecthelion's death. If that's not the action of a desperate lover !
Nice, nice, job turner. As usual "comments when I'll be in break".
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I must admit that I definitely wouldn't want to include this sort of idea in an adaption where I thought they'd make a point of showing blatant SEX on-screen (I'd protest if I saw The Lay of Leithan turned into 'The Lay of Luthien' for much the same reasons), but if it were treated in a suitably understated fashion I've no objection to it (since it helps add an extra dimension to these two mighty, nonetheless briefly-mentioned Great Captains).
In all honesty I must say that I'd honestly rather see The Silmarillion adapted into at least three films (Epic, with shared continuity but not necessarily a series per se), preferably treated as a franchise in it's own right rather than as a prequel to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (let's face it The Downfall of Numenor works better in that respect).
Let's face it, you probably can't make a movie out of the entire Silmarillion, but you COULD make a movie each from the Great Tales of 'Beren and Luthien' 'The Children of Hurin' and 'The Fall of Gondolin' with a little help from The History of Middle-Earth, although I'm not sure how one might best link them together without trying to force the films into a mould that doesn't quite fit.
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I think if the silmarillion were ever adapted for the screen, an HBO-style series would be optimal (or mini series, let's be honest tolkien-fans; the silmarillion may tell a huge story but it's not that huge a book, and about 90% of the dialogue that would comprise any screen adaptation would have to be invented, preferably not by cheesy minded fan-fiction geeks trying to mimic lines and phrasings from the jackson movies and throwing in little elvish words like "atar" to prove how much tolkien trivia they know
as for sex, tolkien wasnt big on it (or atleast writing about it) and i think that works for the removed, legendary, pre-modern-novel angle he comes at middle-earth from, especially with the silmarilion (another think i thought the "silm for noobs" adressed very well, the "wrapped in cellophane" nature of tolkien's recounting of the first age) but I think some degree of human(and/or elf)ity is gained by addressing that part of life, as long as adressed in a suitably high-minded, tolkienian kind of way (not a gleeful smut-fest like GOT)
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I do agree with you on both counts; in all honesty my philosophy on Sex in fiction is that (A) it is not necessarily synonymous with Romance and (B) A tease is ALWAYS a lot more fun than a peep-show for those not participating.
Put another way, I think the average readers or viewers have a lot more fun when they can argue 'Are they or aren't they?' 'Did they or didn't they?' and I am also increasingly convinced that the more explicit a sex scene the more likely it is to kill the pace of any given show - but I'm prudish at heart and suspect that some will disagree with me.
I also agree with you that it would be nice to see what a director new to Middle-Earth might bring to an adaption of the Silmarillion; the only problem would be finding a creator and their creative team willing to devote as much of their creative energy and time to Professor Tolkien's world as Mr Peter Jackson's Posse has lavished upon 'The Hobbit' and 'The Lord of the Rings' (not to mention get Mr Christopher Tolkien to offer his blessing for the endeavour); I have a feeling that we may have to wait a generation or two, until the kids who grew up with The Fellowship and The Hobbit are big enough to start making movies as well as watching about them!
I'm not sure I agree with you about the TV miniseries (old-school EPIC all the way!), but I do agree that such an adaption would be a challenge made only slightly easier by 'Unfinished Tales' and 'The History of Middle Earth' (it really makes you wonder just how may volumes 'The History of Westeros' might fill up, given that Mr Martin is even more prone to door-stopper compositions than Professor Tolkien, it really does!), especially with regard to dialogue.
One idea that occurred to me (and it's a very small thought so forgive me for slipping it in here rather than anywhere else, since I'm not sure it's robust enough to stand on it's own) was that it might be sensible to refer to Sauron by the other form of his sobriquet 'Gorthaur' (so as to avoid confusion between the First Age and the Third); I admit this idea is partly prompted by the thought that Gorthaur goes together more smoothly with 'Tol-in-Gauroth' than Sauron.
Yes, I actually sound this sort of thing out:- admittedly 'Sauron at Tol-in-Gauroth' doesn't sound too bad, but 'Gorthaur at Tol-in-Gauroth' has just that slight edge as it sounds in my ears ...
… alright, I may be a crazy fan, but at least I admit it!
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i think glorfindel and ecthelion are better suited to a gay interpretation than maedhros and fingon (or frodo and sam) for one thing, they're not cousins; a detail which would make any non-platonic maedhros/fingon relationship really weird (if active) or really torturous if not (which I for the record am not personally opposed to, and I expect every potential romantic angle, gay or otherwise, would be explored in some hypotetical HBO-treatment of the silmarillion, if only to "humanize" the players
I think glorfindel would step forward to the duel on the pinnacle accepting both his (almost guaranteed) fate, and the perfect symmetry of it; that he should die safegurding the last of the gondolindrim (and specifically the child earendil, tolkien often talked about characters experiencing the "foreknowledge of deah") and join ecthelion on the other side, of all the great princes of the noldor the only two who managed to destroy balrogs (there are probably no more than seven of them blighting the world, and to get to erase one, even at the cost of your own life, is a profound privilege of fate) what a way to go.
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I agree that the fact that it is not incestuous make it more believable. THough I recently noticed that all the elf-women are braided, (Galadriel, Arwen and Varda who is not an Elf but still probably the role-model for any elf-maiden) except may be Luthien (no mention of braids but no mention of unbraided hair either), but that all elf-males wear their hair unbraided (there are mentions of Legolas' or Glorfindel's hair as "floating" behind them for example) except Fingon : may be he was considered a "sissy" by his cousins for this goofy look.
Well is it a real sacrifice when you know that your good action will earn you a new life ?
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alas, i hear you about that sacrifice earning you a new life bullshit, it undermines the whole pagan "hopeless courage" concept that was supposedly so important to tolkien. I've never liked how the elves, when they die, basically just teleport back to valior, like some videogame character returning to their start position after they die (unless they were like feanor, who's gonna be with mandos for a while) i think tolkien couldn't really decide if valinor, in terms of how it functions in the stories, was a real place or was basically the hereafter (and in fairness alot of "heavens" in ancient mythologies had this same problem) i think when you're dead in middle-earth, you should just be dead, unless you receive some special dispensation like gandalf (who is a maiar so it's different anyway, the ainur never really do die) but theres no reason or finrod to get to just hang out with his dad in tirion like nothing happened
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Well on the other hand the Norses also believed that they will live again in Valhalla so their sacrifice was not so desperate... even less than the Elves since the Elves automatically go to Valinor (except if they really don't want to) while the Viking's sacrifice was the only key to Valhalla which means their acts of bravery were more interested. In fact it's only us, atheist, who are able to make a plain and concious sacrifice of our lives since we don't believe in an afterlife and will be kicked out of most heavens for being unbelieveres given to most holy scriptures.
As for Valinor and Mandos they seem to be both but it is noticeable that they are described only in the Silmarillion : a book that is openly a man myth so it is very hard to know if the place physically exist or not.
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Quite close to how I imagined then and believable armours - sorry, I'm not very keen on the films weaponry, it's aestethically pleasant but not very practical -.
I like it very much
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thank you. thought the film's design work was great, but at times a little more fantastical than i prefer (also costume designers tend to grossly overestimate the importance of armoring shoulders while underplaying the abdomen, i guess the heroic v-taper must be preserved at the cost of all practicality
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opps sorry, I submit it too quickly! I mean it is bravo and elegant
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