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TENRU β SS4 Goku vs Marvel
Published: 2010-09-07 23:10:54 +0000 UTC; Views: 12060; Favourites: 83; Downloads: 1440
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It's funny this started out as a fan comic way back in the 90's. I had unlocked SS4 Goku in the DBGT game for PSone and thought he was so cool. I thought up a little story where kid Goku is transported through a dimensional rift from his fight with Mystic Buu(for lack of better words) as Vegetto. The impact stirred the old programming of planetary genocide and now the marvel universe has to fight a fully realized Legendary Saiyajin. I hope you like the final page of my little fan fiction.Related content
Comments: 149
And then Sentry decided to join the fight!
The Earth was promptly destroyed by the resulting clash, meaning no one was able to see how that battle actually ended.
XD
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I guess Thor and Silver Surfer were off world or Goku would be a stain on the pavement.
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Silver surfer would possibly beat Goku but Thor wouldn't stand a chance. Coarse Hulk could possibly fight him.
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Really Thor takes multiple supernova's without a scratch so he's defiantly more durable than Goku, he benched the weight of 9 worlds so he's defiantly stronger than Goku, his hammer can summon storms from millions of dimensions, drain any form of energy, remove magical enchantments, teleport, weather manipulation, Godblast capable of blowing up planets on it's worst day, thermo attack capable of shaking and potentially collapsing a universe so yeah more versatile than Goku with better ranged attacks. Thor godblasts a hole in Goku's head game over and more powerful beings than Goku have been killed and critically wounded from a godblast so their is no way in hell Goku's surviving it. Silver Surfer simply rips Goku's molecule structure apart, there are so many ways the Surfer could kill Goku in one attack that it's not even funny.
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Hulk stomps Thor on a regular basis the concept is Good only Green Hulk and a couple other Marvell Hero would hold a candle to Goku though sadlyΒ some of the DC heavy hitters could kill Goku with ease.
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i just have one thing... goku trained his whole life to be a perfect warrior his fighting prowess is unparalleled no matter how strengh aint nothing to muscle memory and fighting technique who in marvel has the ability to keep up with goku in terms of fighting at ssj4???????Β
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The Silver Surfer would or King Thor would both beat SSJ4 Goku pretty effortlessly. The Dark Phoenix would also beat him.
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Dude you are just a huge Marvell an aren't you no Marvell Hero or Villian would kill Goku easily though King Thor and Silver surfer would be able to defeat him it would not be an easy battle and Pheionix wouldn't win due to Goku's extensiveΒ mental training.Β
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Lmao you clearly overestimate Goku let me give you a power comparison here. Beyonder can blink and wipe out billions of universes, Goku can just about survive a planet exploding, Beyonder isn't even the most powerful character in Marvel. If your saying no hero or villain in Marvel could easily defeat Goku then you've either never read a comic in your life or are suffering from some form of brain damage. Silver Surfer can instantly drain Goku of his ki and even regular Thor's hammer can drain Goku's ki, Rune King Thor is overkill he erases Goku with a casual thought. The Phoenix even at nowhere near her full power has on multiple occasions survived attacks affecting multiple dimensions Goku's attacks are laughable to her. I don't know how you think Silver Surfer and Rune King can beat Goku but the Phoenix can't, i hate to break it to you but Phoenix>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>King Thor>>>Silver Surfer, she one shots Goku. On a side note neither Rune King Thor nor the Silver Surfer need to drain Goku's ki to beat him there simply way out of his league.Β
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one above all is all thats needed. omnipotents > goku
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Someone clearly doesn't know anything about Marvel.....Goddamit people who like to destroy my favorite characters (like Goku) through fanboyism.
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I'm sorry do I know you. My collection of Marvel comics tells me I know a little something about Marvel. It is my opinion that he could whip DC as well so I guess get crucified when I post that one as well. Oh well.
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I have over 12,000 comics and mangas DC Marvell and anything anime Many DC heros could kill Goku, Superman especially Most Earth Based heros in Marvell would get stomped by goku and even hulk wouldΒ Β have difficulty going toe to toe with him for any amount of time DBZ is on average more powerful than Marvell but on average it is weaker than DC though I love your art and agree he could beat the Heros and villians on this piece without to much damage.
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Not like your the only one with a comic book collection, nor knowledge of characters. You discredit yourself the more fanboy pics you post, and in fact discredit Goku too. Not only that but you do a disservice to Marvel comics that you claim to love.
Goku has no feats of profound mental resistance, and would get screwed over by the White Queen (who I believe is next to Cyclops).
The Hulk has taken on and occasionally beaten the likes of Thor and Strange all of whom would Rofl Stomp Goku almost effortlessly (ill give you some credit here for not including Thor/Strange in this pic, as that implies you at least acknowledge the folly of arguing against someone who regularly takes on Galactic Entities, or someone who can literally effortlessly absorb the energy of Goku's strongest attack with his hammer). Though I could see the Hulk losing, he would not be taken down as easily as implied, particularly when backed up by a ton of other fighters. The World War Hulk would give Goku a fight as grand as any other.
You are a fool if you think that Goku would beat Galactus, especially given the Ultimate Nullifier [link] (Weapon).
Instant Transmission is not FTL, this is confirmed by Goku who says it allows him to move in light speed.
The DBZ movies are not considered cannon by the fan community at large, and there is some debate on whether GT. Nor can he destroy the Galaxy he is in without destroying himself, so the statement "logically he would be able to destroy galaxies" both has no cannon bearing and he would not be able to do. Finally it blatantly goes against Goku's character, who would not want to kill so many innocent lives.
As for my long and passionate response : I dislike it when people try to put their character to godlike proportions that they shouldn't be in. I mean I love the God-Emperor of Warhammer but even I admit he would get owned by some Marvel/DC characters (though he would own Goku via 1000s of years of foresight, instant time stop, FTL reactions, Mind Control powers more powerful then the being who mind controlled 1300 star systems and a whole host of myriad powers).
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A passionate debate is always a good thing and if this picture serves to inspire someone to explore any of these fantastic realities that I love, then it can't be wrong. I disagree that I am doing any harm or making Goku into something that you or anyone one who has see DBZ and GT can't clearly see with there own eyes. Cannon and Marvel/DC should not even be allowed to be uttered in the same sentence. The constant reboots and alternate realities make the word irrelevant. Lets be real, most of the characters powers evolved through new and fresh perspectives from generations of young writers,artist and editors who have many different inspirations. Faster than a speeding bullet to faster than light, that is one hell of an upgrade.
With his I/T (Instant Transmission)he can track power levels galaxies away. So Goku can destroy a galaxy and doesn't have to be in said galaxy to do it either. Plus his I/T is a form of teleportation through an alternate dimension so unless you teleport on the same wavelength (Metal Cooler) you can't touch him until he reappears.
Goku and friends have exhibited astral projection abilities which is a form of psychic power. Shadow King and Professor X had a battle there and the Prof one but was cripple. Goku's astral form would be identical to him but in psychic form. So he does have mental resistance.
Thor and Dr. Strange. Didn't Strange retire or die or something? Magic has little to no effect on Goku. As for blondie, his hammer can be pick up by those who are worthy. And Goku is usually the chosen or worthy so I wouldn't count on him not being able to beat Thor down with it. There is a limit to Goku's energy projection but he always seems to have a hidden reserve, so like Metal Cooler before it might have bit off more than it can chew. Lastly war is deception and Goku is a tactical genius as well as a supreme martial artist with incredible strength, speed, stamina, will power, and energy projection. Thor is out classed and not winning this battle.
Magic and reality manipulation has little effect on Goku. The Dragonballs themselves are the most powerful magic items in DBZ/GT and could only turn him into a child. This only limited his memory of advanced techniques not his power.
As for Galactus, he is not even a concern because it is against his nature to concern himself with the lives of puny earthling who have ruined a meal more than once. However if he chose to get involved he can be killed like anyone else. Mr. Fantastic offed big G and buried him in the basement.
You are completely right that he would not kill so many innocents just to win a battle. However this pic was just the final page of a short Goku vs Marvel comic I was drawing. In the story Goku is subject to the return of his original(for lack of a better word) programming when he crashes headlong into earth 616. I never implied it was an easy victory and believe I gave the utmost respect forcing him to become SS4 Goku.
Just looking at the mass destruction just powering up can cause alone leads me to believe that Goku would win. From the cartoons,comics and video games no Marvel hero is Goku's match. Yeah they talk a big game but lack of consistency in any of there media tells a whole other story. If you don't wish to see or believe this is fine by me. But my view is not so limited to believe that one character better because he is tougher. I like Wolverine over Hulk but Hulk has the better win record. Does that make Wolverine any less bad ass. The answer is no. So just because you or anyone else has the my team or bust mentality make me no less a fan than you.
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You have a point about cannon in comics, as Marvel is infamously bad about the way it constantly retcons (nearly every character has died twice at least). However for vs. Debates we generally assume each character is at his version's strongest, which is what you did here for Goku and didn't do for anyone else. Also DBZ has MANY Contradictions.
There are many people in Marvel that use dimensional teleporting (Dr. Strange being one) so its highly unlikely no one will be able to touch Goku while he is teleporting. Also if what you say is true and Goku can track energy galaxies away (not that Goku's universe is the size of others but still an impressive feat) then that reveals another contradiction, as Goku SAID it was speed of light. Where did he say he tracks energy galaxies away? Because if it was in a movie and that goes up against the DBZ series....then DBZ series wins as it IS more canon then any other version (as Akira Toriyama made it).
And that is another issue with your assumptions: you ignore the progression of cannon. The original maker (Toyiyama, George Lucas, Stan Lee ect) and his direct works have domination over the rest. Thus if DBZ says that Goku can only go speed of light in IT and GT has him travelling galaxies instantly, then DBZ wins as it is higher in the cannon listing . In short DBZ series >>>>> GT(as Toyiyama at least attended some of the meetings) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Movies (don't think Toyiyama had anything to do with them). Same would apply to Marvel; if Stan Lee said Thor could only travel 15 feet per second, then the other writers can go **** themselves with their FTL feats.
Which battle/manga/episode did they do that? Or at least the general time frame, or even a wiki citation? You are making the fallacy in assuming that, because the DBZ universe is really advanced in the energy attack department (which is wholly true) that they must also be on par with established Psychic universes like 40k/Marvel. Please pull me a feat that says Goku or whoever can mind control an entire planet of people, erase their memories, pop skulls by thinking it, induce mass hallucination or anything of the sort? And no from what I have read Astral Projection is considered a "mystical" experience rather then psychic.
Prove it. Prove both that magic has no effect on Goku, and that DBZ magic is anywhere near Marvel levels. Ki is not magic, its inner energy, a fallacy that Goku's fans desperately try to play upon in the superman vs. Goku debates. Magic and inner energy are separated in MArvel and DC. Superman can and has tanked world shattering energy blasts while magical swords nearly kill him.
Modern Dr. Strange is a bitter cripple, so Goku would beat him. no...I am talking about Dr. Strange in his fucking prime! [link]
That post gives a brief summary of what full powered strange can do, whereas from my own research I know Strange can
-Freeze time indefinately, slow it down and travel back in time.
-Has a shield (shield of the Sepharim)that has tanked dimension shattering attacks and has NEVER been broken
-Auto-shields always in place to destroy the speed blitz argument
- can amp up magic to move FTL
- Is probably better skilled at pure hand to hand then Goku (he beat Thor, who Is)
- Mentally control cosmic beings (who have 100 times the psychic resistances that Goku has)
- Summon all sorts of demons and control them
- Control weather
- TK in the 1000s of tons range
-Siphon and steal people's powers
- Blow up galaxies +++ ( and unlike Goku, Classic Strange was kind of an asshole so he would do so if he thought he could bring everyone back {which, being a magical being far stronger then the Dragon balls, probably could)
- merge with unniversal concepts
Please don't compare DBZ universe to Marvel in magic. DBZ gets stomped here. Only in energy do they do better.....most of the time.
WOW okay. Now you are either being deliberately dishonest about Goku or you seem to have forgotten many events
[link]
emperor Pelaf (sp?) didn't wish for Goku to be destroyed, he wished that he was a kid again and was clearly able to effect him.
I laught at your dissertion about Thor. Ill use even Modern Thor's feats, not Rune King Thor or the Thor that had Odin's power and casually destroyed galaxies.
Just in his current form he has
- 1000s of years of martial combat experience (he is one of the greatest martial artists in marvel, and has beaten fully powered foes while he was depowered. Its just for one stupid reason or another he prefers brute force and only used martial arts when he really has to).
- Worthiness enchantment: No one has ever used Thor's hammer against Thor while in battle with Thor in the mainstream Marvel unniverse (616). Goku might be worthy but it won't come into play much in the fight.
- Electricity powerful enough to incinerate Marvel's version of Superman called Sentry.
- Energy absorption- Thor is capable of absorbing energy of all types form the cosmic power of the Silver Surfer, the full energy source of Ultron to name a few. Not only can it absorb the energy but return it as an attack amplified many times over.He has absorbed energy strong enough to destroy 1/5 of the Marvel universe.
- Teleportation
-God Blast (basically kills anything it hits)
-Force fields- Thor is capable of creating force fields so powerful are these force fields that it contained the full blast of life bomb which was capable of destroying 1/5 of the marvel universe.
-Durability- Thor is extremely durable, he is able to survive the heart of stars, super nova blast, blast form his father Odin his rival Surtur to such beings as strong as Galactus and the Celestials, he has the ability to trade extended blows with incredibly strong beings such as the Sentry the Gladiator and the Hulk.
- FTL travel/reactions
- He is pretty smart, contrary to popular belief, though I do believe Goku is the better tactician.
- Physically stronger, in that he picked up and through a giant serpant that coiled around the Earth multiple times.
- Weather and Earth Control
I think that is enough for Goku to deal with right now, and so I won't bring out his complete control over time or the Odin Force unless I have to.
Goku once got hurt with a casual throw of a rock while not paying attention (and thus his defenses weren't up), so with that said is it at least conceivable that a being like me, with no physical strength to speak up, MIGHT knock Goku unconscious or at least hurt him a bit with a bigger rock if I can get him unaware. That is the kind of situation Galactus was in- defeated by Plotkido (a term after the infamous Aizen defeat) . Also please find the comic in which Mr. Fantastic killed big G.
I feel slightly better that it was not an easy victory at least and am somewhat cool thanks to your honesty in not including Thor or Strange in the pic (who I fully believe, if they were playing serious, would dominate Goku. He is far from the strongest thing either of them have fought). I do complement you on your artistic skill at least.
Mass destruction, I find that ironic that you bring it up as Goku's fans frequently bring that up as near the sole reason he will win ("lol he blowz up planets!"). But fair enough- I say tht if you take away energy and magical attacks for Thor and Strange and Energy for Goku both of tthe former would still beat the latter in a pure martial arts combat.
Also I literally Lol'd at the lack of consistency part. Sure, Marvel is notoriously bad at it but DBZ is just as bad
- Multiple accounts of planetary blasts failing to immediately destroy a planet when a lower level character did so near instantly.
- Goku extremely strong in the DBZ series, but then failing to lift a sidewalk in GT.
- Instant Transmission, which I already noted (it IS LS!!!)
-Saiyans breathing space, where it has said previously that they couldn't.
Want more? DBZ has a lot of inconsistency, and if it had as much content as Marvel (or you analyze Marvel SOLELY based on a similar time frame to DBZ) then I am pretty sure you would be even.
Also there isn't a single "Marvel Unniverse" actually, so you can knock that off as part of your triad on Marvel inconsistency. There is the mainstream 616 universe (where I pull all my stats from), the Ultimate Universe, universes for every animated series ect. DBZ only has one universe; Marvel has many.
"Does that make Wolverine any less bad ass. The answer is no. So just because you or anyone else has the my team or bust mentality make me no less a fan than you."
Its fine to think Wolverine is cooler then Hulk; I certainly do. Well what if I think Wolverine is the coolest thing in the Marvel universe and cooler then everything in the DBZ universe? Sure I could draw Wolverine butchering the entire DBZ unniverse however I would be forced to own up to the fact that I am not being fair to the DBZ universe, as many people in that would own Wolverine.
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Forgive me if a fact seem a bit off. I do all these from memory of something I haven't watch or read in years. Many of the episodes of DBZ and GT were fan subs and might not have been as accurate as they could be. However english dubbed translations are also quite flawed.
So Pilaf might or might not have wished Goku dead. If I misrepresent something it is never intentional.
They called it image training in the episode [link] Two warrior making mental projections of themselves on a the astral plane. Psychic powers my man both attack and defense. Professor X is psychic and Shadow King is psychic and did battle on the astral plane. No magic just mental energies. Sheer will can overcome psychic manipution as proven by both Storm and Vegeta. Shadow King is constantly attacking Storm and she is still alive and kicking. Vegeta allowed himself to be mind controlled in order to fight Goku without emotional connection to those he grew fond of. He broke free at will.
Also remember that DB thru DBGT has comedic elements to it so of course Trunk and Goten cry when spanked by their mothers. Or Goku teleports right into Krillins punch when unaware. It is comedy. However your sneak attack scenario is unlikely at best because Goku can sense kill intent.
It might have been the issue where the Human Torch dies. The Surfer comes to Richards and says Big G wants to know the meaning of the dead Galactus in the bottom of the FF4 tower. It might be a different issue but from around that time.
As for Thor, if he were as powerful as you claim he could have stopped the Phoenix force by himself. Instead he was floating in space bleeding and out cold. To his credit he did rise first. The Phoenix is pure energy yes so his mighty hammer should have sucked it up. Bam no more Phoenix force. But that didn't happen. Assisted suicide is what Thor did to Sentry. Not a good example but I was expecting it. I have never seen Thor show any martial arts skill what so ever , not saying you are wrong. Goku earned his place as the strongest fighter amongst thousands of warriors the Universe had to offer. Martial arts is what he know and what he is best at so I don't see Thor beat my man down. As far as energy projection Goku rules and if Thor can't stop the Phoenix force (pure energy)he can't stop a 20x KAMEHAMEHA.
Gladiator was beaten by CANNONBALL! So don't make me laugh.
To put down one Universes magic because it doesn't seem as complex or indepth as another seems wrong to me. Truth is your probably right about the magic thing. But what DBZ does right and from what you say Marvel got horribly wrong is the is no consequence for Stranges actions. Or did I miss something in your description. Yes the Dragon Balls can return someone to life but that negative energy is absorbed and eventually become the punishment for misuse. Almost every book, movie, tv show tells of the taxing nature magic has on the user, even if it is for the greater good. That's what makes them heroes. Whole galaxies you say and all he is is a bitter old man I guess that's the gift of being Sorcerer Supreme. Anyway seem magic might be a weakness and everyone needs one.
Dr. Strange a fighter of Goku's caliber... no just no. Auto shields cool notion but everything has its breaking point and when they give(and they will)say bye to the good Dr.
FTL is thrown around alot like is the end all be all of travel. The term supersonic means faster than the speed of sound but no where does it say it cannot surpass light speed. You have to go through one to get to the other. Heroes do not over compensate so more than likely if they believe Goku can't move FTL than they won't either. Plus he fights proactively at his supersonic speed constantly (along with his I/T) when Marvel heroes fight reactively and by then it it to late.
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I will grant you that Pilaf probably internally wished Goku dead but it was the outer wish, that Goku be turned into a child, that the Dragon acted upon- and was able to do quite successfully. So no magic resistance from what I can see -or at least no magic resistance from god tier level entities, which is what Thor and Strange are.
I would not approach Goku with killer intent, only with intent to knock him out to show his fans that he is not omnipotent.
First off it is only implied that Vegeta let himself be controlled, not stated. Second if we insist on using GT as cannon then Baby was able to possess Vegeta and others(including Gohan); Hypnosis technique was briefly used on Androids 17 and 18 and there are some movie examples that I don't want to use as I don't view the movies as cannon at all. Thirdly you ignore you try to make it seem that, because Goku can resist inter-personnel mind control,from a spell that has only been shown to mind control 1-2 people at once, that he can somehow resist a mental attack that can mind control billions, if not trillions at once. An example of this (since I can't currently find my Marvel example right now)is in the Star Wars series:
[link] . Bane has an extremely strong mind, and in a earlier episode he practically said "FU" to mind manipulation. Now see what happens when 3 strong minds concentrate on him.
Essentially the ability to resist one mental attack (and do some even with the tiniest difficulty), that has only been used on one or two at once, does not imply that Goku can resist someone who can mind control cosmic beings (Dr. Strange) or millions of minds at once (Professor X, a Lower level 40k Psycher). To do so is either fanwanking Goku (who has not shown the ability to resist a psychic of that magnitude) to an extreme or being hugely disingenuous to the Psyker characters. Nor does image training give him more then a slight resistance, as shown by the possession of Vegeta and Gohan still occurring.
What I don't think your grasping (and its understandable, since you don't seem to read up on debate forums or their extended profiles) is that not only are their different versions in the various alternate universes, but that there are different versions in the SAME universe. Thor was not at his most powerful then; he did not have chrono powers nor was he the Rune king version nor did he have the Odin Force. Comic writers are fickle creatures who take and give powers at whim, deciding on a myriad of plots in which to do so. The latest version of Thor vs. Phoenix? I can see that happening however I also think Phoenix would own Goku. However since we are using Goku at his most powerful (uncharacteristically blood-lusted, SSJ4 capable) then its only fair to use Thor at his most powerful, correct?
Your point? 1. I don't think I brought up Gladiator did I? 2. You are refusing to use these comic book fighters at their strongest while you do so for Goku, which is again disengenious to Marvel characters. If you are going to say that then I demand you use the fat version of fused Goku/Vegeta, as that was one of the characters worst moments (even if it was non-cannonical). 3. Before this is brought up Squirrel Girl would own any character so long as the battle occurred off-screen- including Goku. On-screen she loses hard.
Problem is, Dr. Strange is not a hero, or at least I don't consider him one. You see Marvel heroes are more morally gray then their counterparts in DC/DBZ (more realistic in terms of personality). They will kill enemies, even innocents at times (though they regret it) if they sense it is favorable to the greater good, and believe the ends justify the means- particularly in the case with Dr. Strange. He is one of the few Marvel "heroes" who- in character- will go all out. Dr. Stranges BIGGEST weakness- that he is physically human(well until he amps himself up with magic)- plays into this and in fact actually makes it less likely for Goku to win. In his battles against clear superhuamns he does go all out- he will time-stop when they can't, he will go FTL when they can't, he will use his biggest, most destructive powers when they can't- in order to win as quick as possible.
Also a reason Dr. Strange isn't as taxed magically is because he has a cadre of mystical beings that are bound to him and that owe him favors, and in fact he just uses their mystical energy in battle (though he does have his own, make no mistake about that).
There is no evidence for Goku being FTL. His fastest attack is stated to be LS.
Once again you are being Hugely biased in favor of Goku and unfair to Dr. Strange, only looking at ways that Goku can win and not Strange. Seeing as you are using the best of Goku, I will use Classic Strange.
Ways Goku can win:
- Energy Blasts EVENTUALLY overpowering the Auto-Shields. Here is the problem with this theory- most of his most powerful energy blasts take a long charge time, more then enough time for Strange to evoke the Shield of the Sepharim. This is significant as the Shield of the Sepharim, in its entire history of use, has NEVER been broken. It has tanked dimension busting blasts before, and only one of them was able to crack it (dimension as in universe busting) . No attack of Goku has that power, and whats more it can be used offensively, to enshroud Goku in a place that he will never break (or teleport, as its been used against teleporters) out of.
- Beat him physically, which I see as Likely given Goku's martial arts.
Dr. Strange means of victory (with feats)
-Time Stop+ victory: [link]
For how fast it is. Faster then Goku can charge an energy blast for sure.
[link]
Note: Using this in combination with the Shield of Sepharim (as I know he did once in the past) would negate all your arguments about speedblitzing Strange before hand.
- He can also go back or reverse time, so if he wanted to win the cheating way he could reverse Goku to infancy.
- Energy Absorb should the shields fail. [link]
- Turn someones own power against them
[link]
[link]
[link]
-He can blow up planets too: [link]
- The Shield of the Sepharim trick I mentioned earlier protecting him from Galactus:
[link]
- Telepathically Dominates Umar before a anti-psychic interupts their duel. Umar is a godly entity [link]
Put hulk to sleep when Hulk regularly says "FU" to Professor X's telepathy
[link]
- Power to destroy galaxies when powered up [link]
- One of the many powers that he wields : [link]
- Can rip out Goku's soul (which I don't think he has any feats of resistance against) and send it back in time:
[link]
- Become one with Eternity [link]
- Another feat showing he can simply take Goku's power:
[link]
- Cannot die/beats Death itself:
[link]
- Summon an army of demons [link]
- One-shots Silver Surfer
[link]
Do i need to post more feats, or are you ready to conceede that their is one character who Goku cannot defeat if the battle occured at their strongest points?
You are right about one thing; Classic Dr. Strange isn't a fighter of Goku's caliber, he is light years above him.
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So to begin this round I'll have to start by saying Baby does not use mind control alone. He enters you through scratches or abrasions and subvert control of your body while feeding desires. Like Vegeta's desire to be stronger than Goku, basically making you want to serve him.
Astral projection is a fine defense against psychic attack. After all it is a full powered mental image of said fighter.
Oh and I'll have to say that yes MAGIC and REALITY ALTERING abilities have little effect on him. The Dragonballs made him a child yes however he broke free himself and birthed his SS4 Goku form.
As far as the movies at least the 1st was cannon possibly the 2nd and 3rd but Mr. Toriyama had his hand in all of Dragonball and Dragonball Z, movies included. So when I use Broly as an example of power you must understand it is an example that has been surpassed.
Time and space attack are mostly useless because both Super Buu and SS3 Gotenks the stongest characters in the series at the time were able to escape the space and time training area with overwhelming power alone. And then Buu proceeded to collapse dimension upon one another the same way. That is power and completely impudent compare to SS4 Goku who is Millions upon millions of time more powerful that even a fused SS3 warrior.
You intent was to assault him and he would know that and prepare unless it was funny to the fans in which case they'd let you.
Goku transcends death at will whether the gods want him to or not plus as a Saiyajin fights they grow stronger and the closer to death they do the same.
Merging with a cosmic being okay and your point being.
The attack was to knock sense into those who are needed to work together, to cause harm. The Titans in that room would have killed Strange and Warlock and than each other.
An army of demons... hardly. Dryad are greek forest sprites. Not demons at all and Goku just needs to beat Strange and the rest will run screaming.
There are many different kinds of Ki blast. Some look like nothing and do catastrophic damage while other must be charge to do even more. Ki can also make
protective barriers that can be erected and explode to damage an enemy. Goku surpassed Boly when he reached SS3 he is easily on a cosmic level at SS4. The shield won't hold friend. Marvels any given sunday approach to combat is where they fail. If the X-men who are no more than humans with a special abilities can hold their own against the Avengers the worlds strongest superhero team than they are not up to par with Goku. Period.
I don't see it happening but you give more compelling reasons than most. Gotta go to work can't wait to see whats next.
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Alright this is getting ridiculous man. You really need to join some debating sights as even die-hard DBZ fans would think that you are wanking him beyond any proportion.
You do realize Dr. Strange can possess people too? He was able to force Cosmic beings to bend to his will, some of who had a lot more then Astral Projections. It is not as much a defense to simply being immune to it. Even if it was as you said it would not be an adequate defense, as again Galactus (whose very existence is a necessary part of the universe) can do that and much more, and he was still driven to near madness mentally by Strange.
Nope.
The only true movies considered canon are Trunk's special and the Tale of Baradock, which Toriyama personally picked up. He may have written the original series that it was based off of, but that does not mean or imply cannon, such as all the Star Wars E.U. books not being cannon in Lucas's eyes. Sorry but you are going to have to find other examples then the movies, for they are not cannon (except the two I listed) [link]
No. Buu could not collapse dimensions he could make HOLES into dimensions, which is Buu's power and never demonstrated by anyone else (it also wouldn't do too well on Dr. Strange, who can warp into more dimensions then can easily be torn down). Regardless this is in fact reality warping (managing to tear out of alternate universe), but not time manipulation, which would require Gotenks to be frozen in time completely to be called so. They may be able to prevent Strange from banishing them to another dimension, but they are not able to do anything about him simply time stopping them.
So your counting Goku getting hit by a rock as PIS but not letting any example of a Marvel character doing less then par be counted as true? How indecently biased are you? Really this debate is going to run its course soon if that is the case, as you are taking Goku to a religious level.
Prove to me that Goku transcends Death, and prove to me that the DBZ gods are stronger then the Marvel gods, including TOAA. The Kais are laughable to the extreme.
Strange cannot be defeated when he is merged with eternity by anything less then a true omnipotent (TOAA among them). He can use all of his power and is literally everywhere, everywhere in time and space. This is Strange's cheapest move only used when their is no other alternative. In order for Goku to defeat him he would not just need to destroy the unniverse while simultaneously surviving Strange but also destroy the universe throughout time. TOAA wouldn't let him do either, and has intervened in the past when this occurs (Way to prove that you are a irrational DBZ fanatic #43: Arguing that Goku can defeat someone who has more powers then all other Marvel characters combined.)
Nope. Strange has beaten many of them before, and could do so again. This is one of the few beings who defied the Living Tribunal and lived to tell the tale.
Strange has summoned full cosmic beings before, its just the smaller ones that he can control.
No you are being so blatently biased towards Goku it isn't funny. The Shield of the Sephariim has NEVER NEVER been broken in its entire history of use, and he's used it against everything from the average thug on the street to the LV himself. There isn't a single move in Goku's arsenal that can penetrate that shield, and to suggest so is again both showing no knowledge of Strange and revealing your bias towards Goku (but why is this surprising when you have done nothing but throughout this debate?).
1. Dr. Strange is not, nor ever was to my knowledge, part of the Avengers. He has worked with them occasionally and they consult him on mystical matters but he is not part of the group. 2. Maybe because most of the avengers were only superhuman and on par with the X-men? Maybe because near the end of the fight no less then FIVE x-men wielded the powers of a cosmic entity? Maybe because character prevents Thor from Soloing them all? If you are going to keep factoring in PIS for Marvel, then I am also going to factor it in for DBZ. You know where it takes 5 episodes to charge a damn shot or power up?
If this is starting to seem hostile then that is because it is starting to be from my end, despite my attempts to censor myself. I feel Like I am a Atheist trying to convince an Evangelical that not every tenant of their religion is meant to be taken literally or done in modern day, that it IS NOT okay to stone a woman because she was "adulterous" before marriage. Seriously your failure to moderate your views makes it seem you like you view Goku in a religious light. As for me I fully admit that their are some characters to defeat the good Doctor in fiction- but Goku ain't one of them. He can do far more, he has beaten far better, and Classic Strange is a lot less defined by CIS then other heroes.
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I bow to you knowledge of Marvel lore my friend. You are truly a learned individual or your computer has caught fire with all the keystrokes.
Buu is not the only one who can open rifts in dimensions [link] and if Gotenks can Goku can.
Buu was bringing down another dimension on top of them [link] see above for answer.
However before I continue where do you think he fits in the Marvel pantheon of heroes.
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Aww jeez now you made me feel like a jerk for earlier....Sorry man I guess I get too passionate at these things
Not an expert just a frequent user of the debate boards, who often use scans. Classic Strange vs. Goku is one of those that has been debated heavily.
In terms of power levels or what group? I think the Avengers and X-man group is too rule-bound for him , so if he was a hero and in Marvel he would probably be a lone wolf or found his own team like he did with the Z-fighters.
In terms of power? If we factor in modern versions only then he is probably at Thor's par if not above him, don't know enough about Phoenix to tell but one of the best on the planet.
If we use all versions at best then he is below Odin-force Thor, Classic Strange, and a few others but nevertheless extremely powerful.
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That is acceptable to me. I never meant to suggest that he could not be defeated by anyone in Marvel. Celestial being and anyone of that caliber were intentionally left out. And you have enlightened me on Dr. Strange who I also intentionally left out because I know very little of him(he is kind of a jerk)except that he is Marvel master of mysticism. I have always resented when fans say that this character will own that one. Or to say that one universe is superior because its different drives me up the wall. Its fine to loose a battle but that doesn't mean it is without effect or loss.I have characters of my own (check out my gallery)and I know that making a character to powerful ruins the pot. I have to go to work catch you later.
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[link]
Sorry it took me a while to get back to you, honestly forgot. Since they don't seem to be uploading the video please wait until the last 20 seconds of the "Where the f is death battle" video, then a side bar will pop up . Click on it and it will take you to the full battle
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Interesting. Thx for the link.
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Hope you enjoy. Check out their Death Battle Goku vs. Superman, where they do the most definative research on both yet (consulting expert sources, as well as Guest. I am one of the people listed as a Superman Source) to come up with the most definative answer
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I do like him myself. Just not what his fans do to him.
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Nope. Goku is one of the most overrated characters in fiction and thanks to his fanboys one of the most reviled on internet debate forums. Screwattack made the right call
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Nah, his calculations were wrong.
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I assume you have counter calculations to back that statement up, and that you are measuring these calcs from a objective non-biased standpoint?
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Heh Naruto would get owned by Supes too.
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who cares silver surfer will easily mind**** supes
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Post-Crisis Superman yes. And Silver Surfer would rape Goku too
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im pretty sure galactus can kill them all.
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Well yea you keep going up the Marvel tier chart....nothing in Marvel beats the One above all
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Wl? Not that familiar with internet slang but From what I have found either means wide load, "working lady" (prostitute) or waste of life. If its the former I am only slightly fat. If its the middle well I only work on Sundays. I am assuming it is not the latter because it would be slightly hypocritical of you given what you have already wrote.
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I didn't mean that i sometimes reply to comments to remove them.
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oh cmon! you cant compare goku to ANYBODY!! xDDDD he's the most overpowered guy ever (which doesn't make him less awesome)
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