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Renum63 — T-rex, a cutie or a beast
#dinosaurs #prehistoric #theropods #trex
Published: 2016-07-13 12:37:56 +0000 UTC; Views: 8767; Favourites: 230; Downloads: 93
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When I first posted a version of this image over a month ago on my Facebook page it lead to an interesting discussion about how the head of a T-rex and particularly its jaw and the corner of its mouth should look. Especially the part (most) often depicted like a mucous membrane. I have since studied the topic further, but I still haven't found any evidence of large heavy scales on the face of a T-rex, or any theropod for that matter, nor have I found any other reason why a theropod jaw should be illustrated like the jaw of a crocodile or a lizard, or even worse—a snake's. Actually, if you look through images of crocodilians and lizards, you will notice a great variation among them too. Also, no bird have a feature like that. So, I see no reason why a theropod's cheeks wouldn't be covered with proper skin. Without big rigid scales the skin would be flexible enough and there wouldn't be any need of a snake-like construction. BTW, as far I have understood it, the cheek is the part where the jaw muscles are and thus even a T-rex (and its allies) has cheeks. The part usually referred as the “cheek” and which predators—not chewing their food—are lacking, is the tissue called vestibulum oris between the cheek and the mouth opening (actually, predators perhaps are not lacking it—it just varies in size and is sometimes simply very narrow). Link to my Facebook post: www.facebook.com/tombjorklunda…
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Comments: 89
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With all due respect -- What do you mean by this quote?
" I have since studied the topic further, but I still haven't found any evidence of large heavy scales on the face of a T-rex..."
I'm really sorry if this sounds aggressive, but how can you say there is no evidence of large scales? Almost every recorded specimen of Tyrannosaurus ever found has strong evidence of large cranial scales.
Large facial scales are indicated by:
1. Depression/indentation patterns in the surface of the cranial components.
2. Arrangements and distribution of foramina
3. Neurovasculature canals in the facial bones
4. Surface rugosity of the facial bones
5. Functional practicality of integument types
images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca8877…
Regardless of whether Tyrannosaurus had lips or not, it is almost certain that it would have possessed large facial scales.
In order to say otherwise, you'd have to ignore a lot of scientific literature on the subject of Tyrannosaurs, as well as the texture and structure of the facial bones themselves.
(P.S. -- The fossilized body scales of Tyrannosaurus were not too small to be seen. They ranged from 2-5 mm across. That's larger than the body scales of many iguanas.)
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I agree, it definitely sounds aggressive...
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lol, sorry. I was just trying to emphatically express the scientific background of the problem.
(I'll fix my overzealous previous comment....)
Again -- I'm really sorry.
I have heard multiple people claiming to know better than scientists, and I unjustly assumed that you were one of them. My sincere apologies.
However, If I may be so bold -- May I make a few more suggestions?
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Ok, but watch your manners in the future
I'm just an artist and I don't claim I know better than scientists do, quite the contrary, I always try to base my depictions on research I'm able to find. It is just that (in this case) there is no direct evidence for large scales, only indirect, as I have understood it, which have been interpreted in different ways. I may be wrong on this and haven't checked the current situation. In lack of appropriate research in some aspects the gaps must be filled with something thus making the field free for speculation – although trying to base it on facts available. On the other hand, if you aren't bold enough to test new possibilities, even provocatively, the discussion will die out, which isn't a good thing. In paleo art it easily happens that some interpretations and habits of describing a certain feature becomes a norm without actual reason (still wondering about the corner of the mouth) and few want to risk to get attacked by hot tempered paleo guys (sorry, couldn't resist)! And btw I actually have versions of this image even with large scales on the snout and also the speculated crocodilian style face (note: no actual scales in crocodilian jaws).
As for my original post, I was talking particularly about the area around the corner of the mouth, a thing that hasn't been discussed so much (only occasionally) and of which there's very little scientific material to be found. I you know of some, please share.
And as for the size of the body scales, I think there's a slight difference in body size between iguanas and T. rex. For sure you can see the scales keeping an iguana in your hand, but if you place the animal at a distance of 5–10 meters it would be quite hard to discern individual scales only a few mm across. This is quite often overlooked by paleoartists.
And sure you are welcome to make suggestions, no problems with that.
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Once again -- I am very sorry for overreacting. I'll lay off the harsh criticism in the future.
BTW, I think it would be really cool to see your alternative versions.
(Yes, i know that the Milincovitch et al established a lack of cranial scales on crocodilians, but I have heard that the analogue of crocodiles was not the determining factor in the generation of the hypothesis, even though it was used in comparison for the result.)
Anyway -- Here's my other suggestions:
1. I would suggest a different specimen for the structural basis. I'm assuming that this drawing was based on the Wankel Specimen? (MOR 555) Please correct me if I'm wrong. If this is true, than that choice was probably a mistake. The skull of MOR 555 was relatively fragmentary, and the mounted skull is based on a largely speculative reconstruction, which (I have heard) is inaccurate. The premaxilla was restored with a somewhat sloped, pointed orientation which is not consistent with the more complete cranium specimens, and the frame is somewhat warped by other distortions. (In other words: You should probably have used another skull for reference)
2. The arms are too far apart. (Probably due to another outdated reference). The discovery of Tyrannosaurus's furcula has shed light on the anatomy of the forelimbs in more recent years. The presence of a furcula indicates that the scapulae would be much closer to the center of the "chest", (possibly establishing contact), and the arms would consequently be much closer in proximity.
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pd…
3. I know you were going for a more "soft" look, but you really should have included some sort of keratinous structures in the supraorbital, nasal, and jugal regions. The osteological correlates for the integument of those regions almost unmistakably indicates keratinous sheathing or cornified dermis. There's really no reasonable way to put soft tissue over such incredibly course bone textures.
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Amazing artwork - love the detail you have added here
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It does have scales. The (possible) fossil impressions of Tyrannosaurus scales show that they were really tiny, only a few millimetres in diameter. So, a couple of steps from the animal, you couldn't easily discern individual scales. This is true for many dinosaur groups. In some species there may be patterns that seem to be large scales but they are in fact clusters of small scales. The bony constructions in several species is also a different thing. The scales are often drawn and painted far too big, in light of evidence.
There are different theories about how the snout part should look, including the idea that it could have reminded that of a present day crocodile. In this painting I wanted to try a softer type with lips covering the base of the teeth. One would think that large and hard scales would have fossilised better. Anyway, in lack of evidence discerning the mouth and the snout a lot is still speculation.
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I think we have pretty good evidence that the animal did not sport lips. Tyrannosauroids specifically.
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No, we actually do not. In fact we have no evidence they did not sport lips.
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Yeah, we do. www.nature.com/articles/srep44…
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No, we don't, Carr's conclusions no where near suggest a lack of lips, even if he decided to take that angle for no dicernable reason.
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Is there any real evidence that says an adult T-rex had feathers?
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You're just on a damn crusade against feathered tyrannosaurs on deviantart aren't you? This one doesn't even have feathers.
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First off, it's T. rex. And while we lack physical evidence, phylogeny can give us a pretty good idea as to whether or not it had feathers. Because the tyrannosauroids we do find evidence of feathers in are rather basal such as Dilong or Yutyrannus, it's safe to say that Tyrannosaurus posessed some sort of feathers. As to whether adults had them, it's honestly up in the air at the moment. Either bald or feathered to a certain degree is equally accurate.
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If it's T. rex than why dose the title say 'T-rex, a cutie or a beast' ?
I think they have found large samples of scales of a T. rex.
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Because T-rex gets more clicks. And secondly, while skin impressions have been found on the neck, I don't believe their position was ever specified. Also, is this person part of the Mesozoica team? Those people have gone out of their way to insult Saurian and anyone who criticizes them for the inaccuracy of their models.
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"Because T-rex gets more clicks." Okay fair enough.
And secondly, while skin impressions have been found on the neck, I don't believe their position was ever specified." Yes they were. In fact has done an amazing series of interviews with Dr. Thomas Carr on Tyrannosaur skin.
Here's the link if you're interested.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJt5KE…
"Also, is this person part of the Mesozoica team?" I'm not sure if you're talking about me or the artist here. If it's the artist than my answer is how the fuck would I know? And if you're talking about me, I'm not a part of any team.
"Those people have gone out of their way to insult Saurian and anyone who criticizes them for the inaccuracy of their models." Well maybe that's because Saurian's T. rex design is inaccurate.
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Hmm. I just might give it a look.
The Saurian team has stated their Tyrannosaurus is going through a massive overhaul and I'm sorry, but you think they have any room to talk about inaccuracy? Lol at least Saurian took criticism. Gotta love that 70's Tylosaurus. Especially when they outright deny that it's inaccurate.
Even so, our understanding of Tyrannosaurus integument is incomplete to say the absolute least. While we're certainly more constrained in what we can do with feathers, note that we certainly can't rule them out completely. Is an entirely scaly animal possible? Yes. Is a partially feathered animal also possible? Yes. For a more elaborate explanation, markwitton-com.blogspot.com/20… .
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"Hmm. I just might give it a look." Well if you do then I hope you enjoy it.
"The Saurian team has stated their Tyrannosaurus is going through a massive overhaul and I'm sorry, but you think they have any room to talk about inaccuracy? Lol at least Saurian took criticism. Gotta love that 70's Tylosaurus. Especially when they outright deny that it's inaccurate."
It's good that their good that Saurian is redesigning their T. rex. But the haven't taken their criticism very well. Hell the lead artist As acted like a total twat. Just look at the comments on here
if you don't believe me.
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He definitelt could've handled things more maturely.
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Just use this link, it has all 4 parts for the interview: tyrannosauroideacentral.blogsp…
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I've decided that in my palaeoart's "universe", let's say, 'cheeks' like in this art evolved around the base of coelurosauria. For good measure, I decided the spiky eagle-tongue that's become a bit of a meme recently evolved around the base of carnosauria.
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i'd make the cheeks based on the gape. something like Allosaurus would have very far back cheeks because it can open it's mouth insanely wide.
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Interesting. As for the "cheeks", to me it's more about the flexibility of the skin around the corner of the mouth. And not even all crocodiles have pink coloured fleshy parts visible, definitely not birds. A spiky tongue would be a nice addition...
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"BTW, as far I have understood it, the cheek is the part where the jaw muscles are and thus even a T-rex (and its allies) has cheeks."
That actually isn't true, the jaw muscles of archosaurs attach on the inside of the skull and the neck. Cheeks are really cool, but they aren't mandatory.
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Sure, but I can't see how it would rule out cheeks? The question is in what way the cheek area is covered by skin.
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It doesn't rule out cheeks. I'm saying that at the moment there isn't enough evidence to go fully either way, so cheeks are very possible but they aren't technically more or less accurate than no cheeks.
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As for now, maybe, because we don't have hard evidence. But otherwise I wouldn't be so sure (the lizard face being as plausible as a bird face).
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Thanks. And yeah, I think it was fleshy, rather than covered with large scales.
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I like that you didn't have the line of the mouth continue to the hinge of the jaw. it's much more bird like.
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Some think it should be the crocodilian way, but as for now I believe this is more probable.
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Thanks, but my technique is rather simple really. I only use basic ArtRage tools. Oil brush and then spraying a little with the air brush, and then oil brush again. Continue until it looks good.... Maybe I should post some close ups?
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I'd appreciate that actually. That's pretty much how I have been working? But really winging it for the most part. I don't feel I have any real technique.
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A short-mouthed rex is always welcomed, at least for me, and yeah, the "condor cheek" is something i'd guess was probably present in some theropods
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Also, the wrist are pronated and the hands are too big
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This seems to become a thing it seems, theropods having bird-like mouths. I really like the idea and your depiction of it
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Yes, it will be interesting to see if it's going to be a trend. I hope there will be new finds of soft tissue to support any version of their look.
Thanks!
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