Comments: 24
Rebel-Rider [2015-06-13 20:29:45 +0000 UTC]
Our cows get to live like this while they're alive, but they're milked. The problem is, it's not legal for us to sell their milk.
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RivenTear In reply to Rebel-Rider [2015-06-15 21:03:01 +0000 UTC]
Good for you. But I still believe this doesn't excuse dehorning them, castrating the males and slaughtering them so that you can enjoy a glass of milk you don't need. Animal products usually come with a big price to pay, and it's not you that has to pay it but the animals. (To make this easier since I guess you look at animals rather as objects: imagine to be one of your cows. Do you really want to be that animal?)
I've been thinking a lot about independent farmers keeping a small amount of cows mainly for their own purposes. In some cases, I agree arguing against it is hard, because finding ethics-based arguments is more difficult than in conventional agrar-industry. You don't know how many people have tried to justify drinking milk with these special cases. But thing is, they're only special cases, not the standard. Keeping cows for so many people is simply not sustainable, so intensive farming, what I'm actually adressing in my comic, is not avoidable.
Also what pisses me off most is, people that bring exactly this example can often be found only hours afterwards eating something that definitely did not come from those previously discussed "ethical" sources. So it seems they do not really give a crap about where their food comes from, as long as they don't have to think about it.
I hope you understand. (And I'm sorry if this comes off a bit aggressive. I try not to be.)
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Rebel-Rider In reply to RivenTear [2015-06-15 22:22:50 +0000 UTC]
It's true that most people can't keep cattle just for their own use. If there were more small farms and ranches, it would help take some of the load off the big factory farms, which would mean less animals living horrible short lives. I believe it's perfectly fine to kill and eat an animal, but we should try to let it live a decent life.
The only thing we buy from factory farms is bacon. We raise our own meat, eggs, and dairy, as well as being a commercial beef ranch. It's a far cry from a confinement operation. The cows almost always have at least two acres or more per animal and they get to raise their calves until the calves are about 8 or 9 months old, at which point we wean since the cows don't need to have something half their size nursing them.
Were you going to do a comic on what happens in the egg industry?
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RivenTear In reply to Rebel-Rider [2015-06-16 21:12:57 +0000 UTC]
You do know that there's not enough space to do this? The current amount of beef/dairy/etc. production would be impossible if it weren't for factory farms.
May I ask you to ask yourself why exactly you believe it's fine to kill an animal for food? Animals might not have our capacity for a language, but that does not mean they can't have a awareness like you and I do. You as a human being can live without meat, and you can decide against eating meat. Would you be ok with having your throat cut because someone else likes your flesh? Or does the act of not knowing, aka "humane" slaughter, make it any better? According to your profile you seem to be a christian believer. But isn't the most important message coming from Jesus to have compassion? Do you think it's compassion to kill someone because the taste of their flesh gives you pleasure? I don't think letting them live a "decent" life is an excuse for ending their life brutally. Really try to imagine to be one of your cows. Would that bother you?
I'm really sorry to say that, but I don't think this discussion is leading us somewhere. I can't change your mind, you can't change my mind, because we don't understand the world in the same way, and are not talking about the same. Can we close it here, please?
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dollsichor In reply to RivenTear [2015-07-14 06:42:50 +0000 UTC]
I'm just curious about your perspective on this...
Carnivores hunt and kill all the time. Why is it justifiable for an animal, as similar and as equal to us as you may put it, is justified in killing, but if a person does it, they're immediately shunned for it? I'm pretty sure our ancestors used to hunt. I guess they should have stopped something that came completely natural to them.
Your argument doesn't hold much water at all. In fact, I think your response to that individual was rather immature and petty. On a lighter note, which might please you, I don't even eat meat. I'm just curious as to why you think it's such a shitty thing for a person to do what we've been doing over the years, same as any other carnivore or omnivore. If the animal lived a proper life and was humanely killed, I don't think you have any right to be getting butthurt.
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RivenTear In reply to dollsichor [2015-07-17 20:45:24 +0000 UTC]
"A note to all Non-Vegans reading who are about to read this comic: I'm glad you have found enough interest to read this comic. But before you want to post your objections to the comic, please make sure you have read my prologue, and check whether you can find your objections here. If your about-to-be-comment can be found there, please don't post this comment. I won't delete any critizing comments (as long as they don't contain insults), I'm not a totalitarian state, but seriously I'm too tired to discuss arguments that have been debunked by Vegans over and over again. I'm just to tired to answer stuff like "BuT NoT EVerYOne CaN Go VeGAN". Of course not, but that's also not the point. I'm just too tired to do that. Thank you for staying respectful."
Oh look it's a troll, how funny!
Please learn to read first before you bother other people.
And now to your argumenation:
1. Yes, carnivores do that. Humans are not carnivores. If we were, you wouldn't be able to eat anything besides dead animals and the contents of their digestive system. We humans are omnivores, but we can live on a vegan diet. Check out what the American Dietetic Association has to say about this .
2. No animals beside humans do have a moral system. Because of that, they don't have a problem with killing each other, cannibalism and rape. We on the other hand do. I believe as humans we have a moral obligation, because if we don't use our intelligence for that, we're nothing but animals. Imagine our society without moral rules. Have fun with that.
3. Wow. The ancestor argument, good one, haven't heard that in a while. And do you know what our ancestors did too? They killed, ate and raped other innocent humans. Let's do that too, because hey, when they can, why should we not do the same thing?
4."Your argument doesn't hold much water at all. In fact, I think your response to that individual was rather immature and petty." Wow, even Kurt Vonnegut would be surprised by that level of irony.
Please go troll somewhere else. And should you really be that uninformed about the themes of the ethics around veganism, as adviced at the beginning of my comic, start reading here. Don't come back before you read it, thanks, I want to stay sane for a bit longer.
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dollsichor In reply to RivenTear [2015-07-17 21:28:13 +0000 UTC]
I do apologize for making you think that I am a troll. I believe that most trolls make an attempt to cause anger and distress in others, which I was not trying to do. I admit that I was wrong, and I am glad you responded with sources to back up your argument. In the end process, you have made me a more intelligent individual because of this. Still, I do think that many of your responses are rather immature, despite mostly containing accurate information. However, in your defense, I'm sure you do get quite a handful of hateful comments towards what you're trying to support.
Anyway, I hope you have a nice day.
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Rebel-Rider In reply to RivenTear [2015-06-16 21:53:07 +0000 UTC]
Around here, it's done by almost everyone. The land isn't good crop land, so the best way to make money off it is to use cattle. (Most of it is impossible to farm.) As far as I know, the majority of beef cattle are raised on grass, so they get lots of room. Pack too many together and there won't be enough grass. For the last few months, they're often put in feedlots and fattened on corn. (There is more demand now for grass fed beef, which is skipping the process of the feed lot, so they'd have lots of space for their entire lives.)
Animal life is not on the same level as human life. God made a lot of those animals as food or beasts of burden for man. There is nothing in the Bible saying it's wrong to use them that way, though there are a few verses that mention treating them well.
I wouldn't want to be any kind of animal, even a well-cared for one, like a dog. It would mean losing my human intelligence, not just my body. I guess if I had to be a cow, being one of our milk cows would be okay.
That's fine with me. I just wanted to inform you not everyone has a confinement operation.
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aPPlejaZZ In reply to Rebel-Rider [2015-06-25 23:00:14 +0000 UTC]
"Animal life is not on the same level as human life. God made a lot of those animals as food or beasts of burden for man."
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Rebel-Rider In reply to aPPlejaZZ [2015-06-26 03:51:42 +0000 UTC]
I stand by what I said. I'd guess the value of a fly's life, in your view, is the same as human life?
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aPPlejaZZ In reply to Rebel-Rider [2015-06-26 07:46:58 +0000 UTC]
And I stand by rationality and logic. A cow is a mammal and so are we. Flies are invertebrate, very different from us, but they do have a ganglionic nervous system and do respond to what we would call pain. There are evidences that many insects have the ability to learn, which would be considered intelligence. Like all creatures on this planet, including humans, it lives, it eats, it procreates and it dies so just because it is small doesn't give you the right to take its life if you don't need it to survive, or exploit it for your own benefit and profit.
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Rebel-Rider In reply to aPPlejaZZ [2015-06-26 15:24:36 +0000 UTC]
So, no swatting mosquitoes sucking your blood, I assume?
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aPPlejaZZ In reply to Rebel-Rider [2015-06-27 02:22:37 +0000 UTC]
That i do. Mosquitos transmits a huge number of diseases. If I had a gun and a bear came to attack you, even tho I don't agree with your lack of ethics, I would shoot the bear. I'm not saying you can not protect your own life, but enslaving and torturing other lives, human or otherwise, is unethical and should stop.
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aPPlejaZZ In reply to Rebel-Rider [2015-06-28 13:11:02 +0000 UTC]
If they were in peril. I'm def on the other animal's side.
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SocksTheMutt [2015-02-26 02:40:33 +0000 UTC]
Wow....I'm truly speechless right now. This was beautifully done and it seriously deserves more attention. Your art is stunning and the message is portrayed perfectly. It's heartbreaking but tragically realistic. This is why I'm vegan.
VERY well done!
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RivenTear In reply to SocksTheMutt [2015-02-27 15:06:40 +0000 UTC]
Thank you! This comment made my day
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RechaDis [2014-11-15 21:43:07 +0000 UTC]
is he/she in the paradise?
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RivenTear In reply to RechaDis [2014-11-21 16:10:34 +0000 UTC]
Hi I thought I'd reply to all your comments here. First of all, thank you for all your comments! They're so cute :3 and they also make me very happy
Yes, this comic is quite sad, and unfortunately the reality looks even worse. It might hurt to hear all these things, but maybe this might lead us to another path, where we could create a world without all this suffering. Maybe, in time, we could actually reach that, if we don't destroy ourselves before...
Glad to see that my comic has left such a deep impression!
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RechaDis In reply to RivenTear [2014-11-21 19:35:36 +0000 UTC]
i just wish that there were more people interested in this kind of things
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RivenTear In reply to RechaDis [2014-11-21 19:51:30 +0000 UTC]
Yes, but sadly we can't have everything, my friend... :/
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