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PrehistoryByLiam — Triceratops Refined Sketch
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Published: 2018-12-23 06:02:45 +0000 UTC; Views: 4258; Favourites: 105; Downloads: 0
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Another WIP a bit further along in the early stages of this reconstruction I'm working on. Compared to the rough sketch I've refined the skull shape, giving it a less square-shaped frill, more prominent jugal horns, and a much thicker keratinous sheath over the brow horn core. I've also done a bit more detail as goes the scales, but I'm still unsure about some things with Triceratops. It's reconstructed by some with rectangular, alligator-like ventral scales, but not by others. Anybody know where this comes from? I also am still undecided how I will proceed with the crazy nasal anatomy of Triceratops and other ceratopsids, ie how speculative I want to go. In some ways, the more we learn about an extinct animal the clearer it becomes that we really don't know that much. Any suggestions/tips are welcome.Related content
Comments: 39
The legs (above all the forelegs) look not thick enough when compared to Hartman's skeletal. I wouldn't go with an excesively bulky tailbase since this animal didn't need the tail to maintain balance and the anchorage structure of its femur for caudofemoralis is not very big. Then it also depends on how much fat and skin you add, of course. Also the tail seems to me slightly shorter than that of the skeletal.
Again, I don't know how faithful you want to be to Scott H.`s skeletal, but the area of shoulder and pectoral girdle you drew is way smaller than the skeletal's. It also looks like you gave it a much smaller scapula.
I saw in Facebook, not long ago (last week?) somebody uploaded a short article about the shape of scales on the frill. Which is something I don't get, to be honest, because it's supposed to be covered by a keratinous sheath. Unfortunately I can't find the article.
And by the same time they showed in Facebook also an article, which oh surprise I can't find either, about jaw muscles in Triceratops.
I guess you already read M. Witton's blog post about horns in Triceratops.
And, finally, you know this beautiful skeleton?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tri…
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Ooh thank you for all this insight, I really appreciate it! I agree with you on the features of the appendicular skeleton, with this and my first ceratopsid (Pachyrhinosaurus) I guess it's a habit of mine to downsize their limbs and oversize their head. And yeah you're right, in Hartman's skeletal that shoulder area is pretty massive.
I think with the frill, I'm going to stick with the keratinous sheath covering it. I've heard a few rumors of scale impressions on the frill and have seen some pics, but they are unconvincing to me (especially as someone who is far from qualified to interpret fossil data to that extent) and the most reputable sources on the subject (Witton and the Horner/Goodwin research he references) indicate the osteological correlates for the keratinous sheath seem to cover most of the head.
I have also since lengthened the tail. Is there a particular reason Triceratops wouldn't need the tail for balance or not have a significant caudofemoralis? Just curious.
Also I'm hesitant to use that skeleton for reference, as it doesn't closely resemble most others I've seen and the caption specifically states it's a composite.
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No problem!
If the skeleton is a composite it's preferable not to use it. You're right in it. One has to be cautious with museum mounts.
Perhaps I was too assertive in my statement about balance. It's just a deduction of my own, taking into account Trikes walk on four legs and their tails aren't very long.
Regarding caudofemoralis, that was also my reasoning. Some dinos like Ceratosaurs or Massospondylus have big structures in their femurs for the insertion of this muscle and indeed they have big, thick tails too. So I thought Triceratops would be the opposite.
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They probably wouldn't need their tails for counterbalance to the same extent that bipedal dinosaurs did, but the caudofemoralis is a major component in the movement of the hind limbs. I don't think it would have a super thick tail, but probably pretty thick at the base. Idk.
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I'm starting to long for good diagrams in the internet showing caudofemoralis in ceratopsians!
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Agreed. It's weird how Triceratops is almost as popular as Tyrannosaurus and there's maybe 50% of the useful information readily available on the internet.
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I would advise, more for artistic "elegance" than on a scientific standpoint, to avoid giving the face too many strange structures. I think that while plausible, inflatable nasal air sacs are not a certainty at all. For the scales, the rumored skin prints show them rather hexagonal-shaped, close to what you drew. We know nothing about the ventral scales though and while retanculager croc-like could technically work, I guess they are not certain either. My guess is that for a herbivorous animal, it is good to have protection.
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Thanks for the input! I certainly won't make the face too ostentatious (whatever I may give it). And the scales are pretty rough still, I will be much more precise when it comes down to the final line drawing but I don't want to re-draw them for each layer. While nasal sacs (which I haven't 100% landed on conceptually) are not certain, there is clearly SOMETHING going on with ceratopsid nasal anatomy that we don't fully understand. And in that sense, I can't "give the face too many strange structures" if it already has them, lol.
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True. ^^ I sometimes underestimate the weirdness of dinosaur
faces. ^^ Best of luck!
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Thank you very much!
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Matt Larson (Peter Larson's son who also works at the Black Hills institute) has talked about the skin impressions in interviews and says some of the preserved scales resemble the underside of a crocodile. That's all I could find though, as it doesn't seem pictures of these scales exist online.
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Ah okay, thanks!
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Thanks! Shouldn't take too long
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I think you may be right, thanks for pointing that out!
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honored by your kindness! you are a great artist.
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Thank you very much!
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What is written on this pic? I cant read those words
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Did you try zooming in? Apologies for my handwriting
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Yeah, but it is still not readable
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You're not missing much
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So, what was written?
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I'm not typing that all out. Just notes on little anatomical details I'm unsure about
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Liam don't worry, in mobile it is unreadable, but in pc version i cna read it, so no problem
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Apparently the skin impressions of Triceratops included crocodile like belly scales, but I haven’t found any images or papers confirming this.
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Ah, okay. Jeez, people need to seriously start publishing on what they got!
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I agree, it's infuriating some times
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I'm wondering if these on the left could be the ventral scales: pbs.twimg.com/media/CBB_wuTWAA…
They may also be the ones in the Upper Middle in this image: qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-…
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Those could be anything. It looks like it could just be preservational bias to me
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Doesn't help that "Lane", the Triceratops all the impressions are from isn't described
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I'm just wondering what could be of a higher priority if you're an academic with access to that specimen than describing/publishing soft tissue data on the second most popular/iconic dinosaur of all time
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If I wanted to be facetious I'd probably point to the tiny scraps of soft tissue we have for Tyrannosaurus, but in all seriousness I'm wondering if they're in peer review hell or something like that, especially for Lane, dude was announced a few years ago, though with the frill impressions from earlier I understand since they've only come to surface this month and are probably still in the process of being described. But come on Lane, you've been known for years, it's 2018-2019, it's time.
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Exactly. Although the same people working on Tyrannosaurus soft tissue probably aren't also working on Lane.
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