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DrScottHartman — Stan 'n Sue comparison
Published: 2013-03-22 18:54:43 +0000 UTC; Views: 24112; Favourites: 207; Downloads: 0
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With Stan and Sue now overhauled, I decided it was time to dust off the idea of comparing T. rex specimens. Eventually I'll update all of them (and add some new ones in), but for the next month or two this will have to suffice. Thanks to better scaling I can corroborate the femoral length of both specimens as published in Hutchinson et al's 2011 paper on computational analysis of tyrannosaur limb and body dimensions, as well as the overall length of FMNH PR2081 (Sue).On the other hand I am unable to replicate the length estimate they provide for BHI 3033 (Stan). Stan's skeletal, as restored here, has a length of 11.28 meters, half a meter shorter than the 11.78 of the scanned mount. The discrepancy seems to stem from how long the reconstructed distal caudals are in the mount, as well as some very odd spacing in the scan (i.e. the mount) between the neck and skull. Otherwise the individual elements match up quite well between the scan and my reconstruction (which is good, because scan data rarely suffers from scaling errors).
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Comments: 143
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What length have you restored FMNH PR 2081’s skull here? I know restorations of the uncrushed skull vary from 144 to 152 cm.
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I've seen comparisons of the two skulls. Do you know why Stan appears to have longer teeth than Sue?
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You mean the cast? The Stan cast has many of the teeth slipped out of the socket with large amounts of the root exposed, making the teeth look bigger than they really are.
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oh okay! that's what i was meaning, i've seen side by sides and Stan's teeth looked so gigantic compared to Sue's
thank you for explaining
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Mmm I don't know I starting to sense a misconcept about Stan's height.
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Stan is 3.3-3.4 meters tall at the hips on the image.
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Stan is still taller from what I've looked at. If somebody were to remeasure all the T.rex skeletons then you'll see whole a different ball game.
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on this image Sue is slightly taller than Stan. Scott measured the individual bones so we can be sure its right.
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Well when I go to Black Hills and I measure the original Stan skeleton along the Sue and the 18 yr old Thomas...we'll surely see.
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your going to measure the mounts?
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I'm going by the measurements without the mounts. I did a measurement of Fran the Acrocanthosaurus awhile back and it stands at least over 4ft even with the spine. However the Acrocanthosaurus from the Texas Museum approximately stands around over 8.
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were are your measurements coming from?
Don`t trust the museums size figures, unless you have no other choice.
Museums have a bad habit of lying..
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Alright first off, the Paleontologists who found Fran measured the complete skeleton which they found within those three years of excavation from 1983-1986. Fran Graffham and her husband Allen helped reconstruct the cast replica for the Acrocanthosaurus and it was fully finished and shown at the Black Hills Museum on August 30, 1996.
So the replica...pretty accurate to the finest detail. Here is your proof
www.wmnh.com/wmge0000.htm
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Is Fran fully Complete? Or is this just a outdated size Estimate?
This will not change the fact that Scott's drawings are more acurrate than the museum's size figures
The museum that owns sue still claims it to be 12.9 meters long despite the real fossils indicating a animal slightly over 12.3 meters. IIRC the museum that holds stans remains still claims that stan is 11.78 meters long while it's most likely 11.28 meters long IRL
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They found the full skeleton at least. It took three years of excavation, I gave you the link. They would never ruin it, the estimate was accurate to the finest detail nearly being nearly as long as T.Rex itself. Besides that Fran could more or less be a dwarf size of what she is suppose to be considering Texas, Acrocanthosaurus is the same size as its cousin Allosaurus.
And his drawings have nothing to do with size they're just there to support the example that's all that it is.
You'll need to translate those abbreviations cause I'm not all for Paleo-jargon. And instead of going by the other museums go by the museum where Stan is originally held, Black Hills.
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instead of complaining about my ''Paleo-jargon'' why didn't you address the actual point?
and many of Scott`s drawings include a 1 meter scale bar so you can determine the overall size of the animal.
in the link : either i missed the part where it talks about completeness and size, or its not there
Heres one of Scotts drawings s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/5…
as far as i can tell its not a full skeleton.
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Well I'm that keen on Paleo-jargon. So I thought you were willing enough to be a sport and translate cause you know there are other names with the same abbreviation.
I work height measurements I don't issue on the length, I leave that in my descriptions. The whole point of my Dinosaur Scaling series is to address the matter on how tall dinosaurs are sense most websites never issue the height measurements and I've seen so inaccuracies in dinosaur heights in well fully accurate games like The Isle. So I'm addressing the matter.
Look at the pictures of Fran compared to her owners down below. Without the mount she at least stands around 4-5ft.
But which one did he base that off of; there are different specimens you know and likely it is isn't Fran because her name is not mentioned in this drawing.
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Both length and height are important. as long as you don`t go with BS height figures like a 15-20 tall tyrannosaurus, then it`s not much of an issue.
NCSM 14345 is the same specimen as Fran. now take another look at the link i sent you Fran is included.
in Scotts new drawing his Acro should be about 11.8 meters long or 38.7 ft
ive explained why mounts should be used as a last resort
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Yes I know that, but the length addressed in many facts on dinosaurs, but the exact is never stated that is my for the series. And don't T.Rexes are exaggerated to that height, they're all roughly up to 3 and the 12 tall charters.
Were not including mounts in this situation. And Fran was built for the Black Hills Museum, why are going to the North Carolina for the example unless Fran was moved to that location or Hartman was measuring the bones of a second sculpture. Cause the only the Acro I from there is the one who measured to the 9 charter. Correction to myself the N.Carolina Acrocanthosaurus.
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my word of advice to you is using a grid function when making comparisons on dinosaurs as it helps determine if you got the length and height correct.
and can you repeat your second sentence, i don`t understand what you where trying to say.
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Yeah the grids never work for me. When I look at the height is never really precise and it took me an hour to figure how tall the Alamosaurus was by a grid. So I'm sticking with height charts (at for the smaller dinosaurs).
And like I said I rather not include the mounts...it's better if base of the chart is at the base of the dinosaur's foot. I also said that Scott probably measured another replica and I was right; I find the Acrocanthosaurus ("Fran") at the North Carolina Museum to be sketchy. As the Black Hills replica seems to be the original and a little smaller while the North Carolina replica seems newer and bigger.
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What he's saying is not to trust mounts. Scott Hartman and other paleontologists stress that most mounts aren't accurate or even articulated true to the anatomy. Like you'll find Camptosaurus with a head too small, Tyrannosaurus with oversized sacrum, etc. He even mentioned less than 5% of mounts get the arms and legs properly put together.
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Nobody is listening to you...your a scrub; okay?
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Usally when you disagree with someone you try to address and debunk there arguments.
Calling someone a scrub on the other hand and saying there not worth listening to is a bit pathetic and ignorant.
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Listen to that is exactly what he is. You need to look at from both perspectives; this dude on to my account making rude comments for shits n' giggles; and yeah I was being a rude, but for guy like him I honestly could careless.
Scrub is the perfect definition because this dude else better than just sit on his ass and think he knows best and as we speak he's invading my account right now. So don't quick to judge learn the full story...
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What happened between you and Sekley
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That dude is an idiot that's what. He randomly came on my account one day spitting out words and we've been at it for a month. Dude even had the nerve to come on to my YouTube channel and criticize my accurate dinosaur roars and then pose as he never said anything.
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Takes one to know one pal. Also what kind of ghetto ass slang is "scrub" lol?
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It's exactly what you are mother#@$! (excuse my language)...you literally eating off the bottom of the barrel...like seriously you could be doing better things like becoming college student or something, but instead you keep arguing with me with nothing better to do while I got to bed.
And when I wake you'll probably still have something to say.
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I only respond back knowing I can get a rise out of you. I'd probably leave you alone if you pretended I didn't exist. Besides annoying you only takes about twenty minutes out of my 24 hours. Hell annoying you doesn't even affect my studies because it doesn't even take that much time or priority xD
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Yeah and I somewhat enjoy because it proves you're more of an idiot than you really. Seriously if you're a college student then I hope you mature...
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Likewise to you too. Your reputation isn't exactly known for your level headed maturity xD
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Oh and your a saint. As if...I'm pretty leveled headed when it comes to maturity, and I accept my responsibilities for throwing out F bombs, but you guys deserves. When idiots like you come around my account or such and throw disrespectful shit the gauntlets come off.
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Lol I bet your hair isn't even close to that in real life. This is what I'm talking about by ego. You self insert an idealized version of yourself into your work xD
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Idiot none of pictures are on the internet and I don't have to many kid pictures XD
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Then put them here for all to see. Like I said I doubt your hair looked like some sort of Saiyan ripoff at any point in your life.
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Then you're completely unaware of things. Because my hair is Saiyan standard.
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If you really have that hair then why don't you just put a picture here on DA? A selfie isn't hard to take after all. Oh wait you're dodging the question because you don't have that tacky hairdo.
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Idiot because my hair doesn't grow like that anymore. If you had any understanding you would've thought of that. And relatively I don't show too much of any pictures on the internet. So...stop criticizing
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Nah the defensiveness already tells me that enough. Your hair was never like that lol.
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