lantairvlea In reply to simonalora [2022-08-04 22:59:52 +0000 UTC]

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to LilTeaPlease [2017-02-19 19:55:31 +0000 UTC]

Hey Kaylen!  Sorry for my tremendously belated reply!  I haven't had the chance to sit down and check DA much and I really appreciate the thought!  I hope your first year of college is going well I miss seeing you and Mariah!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

LilTeaPlease In reply to lantairvlea [2017-02-21 06:02:11 +0000 UTC]

No worries Cori !! We miss you too, we actually just went
to the Arabian Horse Show! I hope you have had the chance to go!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

lantairvlea In reply to LilTeaPlease [2017-02-28 22:42:39 +0000 UTC]

Always fun to see the Arab Show. We went on Tuesday. I didn't take students this year because I just had baby boy #3!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to MiscNapier [2015-09-18 01:15:10 +0000 UTC]

Thank you!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to MiscNapier [2015-05-28 17:18:23 +0000 UTC]

I am glad DA doesn't have a text limit in comments... maybe we should be noting or e-mailong each other i stead.

I just happened on this article and thought it might be appropriate: www.eurodressage.com/equestria… Just as an over-all since you are talking a lot about contact and what it might/might not be.

I (or rather my students) like the Fabrton I have. They are similar to the mid-grade Big Horns with the leather jockeys, pommel, seat, and cantle. The all cordura/synthetic ones are a little cheap and tend to lack a decent gullet. Hopefully you can resolve your screw issue without having to replace the saddle entirely (O vanity and being picky about color! Haha). With my Western saddles I mostly use those neoprene waffle pads, usually with cordura on top because it lasts longer, but they don't soak up the sweat and hold the heat in like fleece or felt do. Not holding heat is paramount here.

If you want someone to proofread that I'd be happy to. Just bear in mind I might not be the fastest, but I can guarantee thorough!

What are you referring to in "rubbing to a stop?" Is that just in ground work ala Mr. Anderson or Parelli when using their Snazzy Sticks? Or is it something else entirely. Just being sure we're on the same page and you don't have some strange thing I've never heard of and would certainly be curious about. There is a lady in my area that does a "neck stop" where you lean forward and run your hands up the neck to stop the horse. It's a bit of a safety/trick thing as she and her daughters work with a lot of "problem" horses.

The not-quite-turn on the forehand sounds like what the NH group tend to refer to as "disengaging" the hindquarters or even the one-rein stop, but in the latter you don't actively drive the hindquarters around. Again, checking terms to be sure we're talking about the same things.

I do think that those are three very good starting points. Of course, "respect" meaning being conscious and aware, not terrified of being anywhere near the person. I describe to my students that the basic aids (hand and leg) essentially control "whoa" and "go," and everything else stems from that. (Technically if you slow one pair of legs and/or ask the other set to quicken you get a turn.) Yes, steady pressure on both reins is, mostly, ineffective and often causes more issues than it solves. I will hold steady pressure on one and "pulse" with the other at times depending on the situation and horse as with everything!

Are you familair with the "training pyramid" at all in dressage? Of course it is often called a "pyramid" but it really isn't a straight Point A to Point B thing. The German National Dressage Committe that put out "The Principles of Riding" (which I need to finish reading at some point...) refers to it more as three intertwining circles that constantly interact with each other. Anyway, the principles are Rhythm, Relaxation, Connection, Impulsion, Straightness, and Collection and may have something to add to your current thoughts.

I am also curious what your "traditional idea of contact" is because I can't help thinking that it is probably not what contact should be. When I get to the point where I am asking my students to work with contact it is with what I call a "neutral" contact, meaning that it does not change and stays the same no matter what the horse is doing so it becomes like the bridle on his face or the saddle on his back. Something that does not alter or influence the horse's stride until it becomes "active." Now contact is most often referred to in reference to the hands, but I do believe that it counts for ALL points of contact (and should really be felt in the elbow more than the hand, thus the straight line from elbow to bit is important). This also means the seat and the legs. You are talking about feather-light feel, but how light is your seat when placed upon the horse's back? Are we not encouraged to sit deeply around the horse with full contact through your seat and thighs and (unless we are posting or in half-seat) have a solid connection with the horse's back and sides. Even with our weight off of the seat we still allow our full weight down into our lower leg (I hesitate to say stirrup because this should also be possible without them) otherwise we would not stay with the horse. All that said as well consider the difference between the feel of something initially making contact with your skin and something that has been resting on the skin and then simply increases the pressure. The former always comes as a slight shock. It is abrupt no matter how gently you initiate the pressure. At the point when the two objects finally touch, it is always slightly disruptive. Now consider the latter, if something is already there, be it lightly or more heavily, an increase in pressure is more comfortable. Certainly it could reach the point where it becomes problematic if you increase too much, but just a slight increase is not an issue and something-to-more is less disruptive than nothing-to-something. Contact should be about having another point of communication with the horse, both in your giving direction and in the horse giving you feedback (stiff in the jaw, hollow to the left, whathaveye).

I definitley agree with the horse never being behind the vertical. MAYBE a half second if the horse is ON the vertical to begin with and the rider retards the forward motion, but ideally, at or in front of in accordance to the horse's training, fitness, and frame. There is a problem with your little angle diagram there. You are only referring to the diagram (which is the horse moving from right to left in this case) and not to the actual angle formed by the horse's face and the horizon or even its own neck. The angle between the horse's skull and the first vertebrae (atlas) is probably the most important, though for argument's sake we'll use the horizon line and assume the topline is level, in which case the angle should be between 90 and 120 degrees. At 180 degrees the horse would be completely straight in the poll with no flexion whatsoever and anything greater would have the nose pointing towards the sky. Objectively 270 degrees would have the horse's neck flat and the nose pointing straight up! I point it out this way because hyperflexion would indeed bring the angle between the horse's neck and skull at an acute angle, which would be less than 90 degrees and that is easier to get in one's head than thinking the full circle around to 270 or 240 because when you mentioned those larger numbers and had the diagram my default was for the nose to be pointing right which would put the imaginary horse in hyperflexion and even outside of the diagram my default is to assume the angle referred to is the one between the neck and plane of face, not the more open angle arching over the neck and then to the face.

That all said, yes, having horses on a loose rein and being behind the vertical drives me nuts (one of the things I am not fond about when it comes to Mr. Anderson's methods "I don't care if the horse is behind the vertical so long as he isn't hanging on my hands!" Yeah, he's going to be behind the vertical if you CHASE HIM THERE by constantly asking the horse to back off of an ever-changing point of contact ... *cough*).

Impulsion is not just about forward propulsive power, though that is often what people thing, the horse's ability and willingness to carry himself and his rider forward. Collection is about stepping deeper under the body and decreasing the base of support (the horse stepping further underneath the rider's seat). Yes a horse should step into the track of its forefoot and overtrack when extending, but in the collected work the steps are shorter and higher because the energy is transfered "up" instead of forward. Of course this requires impulsion, but impulsion is not just the horse stepping deeper under its body. I guess what I am trying to say is impulsion is the energy in the stride not necessarily the placement of the feet as you should have the same amount of energy and power in the extended trot as you do in the piaffe. That is what makes the transitions smooth. You shouldn't have to "rev the horse up" or "wind him down" to transition, you just manipulate the energy into a different shape.

I don't think you have mentioned Will Faerber before and I looked up a couple videos on YouTube to see what he was doing and as a reference point. He sounds quite good and seems to know is stuff and be very much of the classical school. I can't quite judge fully yet, but you are on the right track I think in looking at his stuff. I did laugh as he has a video critique of a lady and her Fjord and he couldn't place the breeding. He must be very sheltered to not recognize a Fjord when he sees one. I need to finish watching that video (over 20 minutes, made it to five before I decided to spend more time responding here instead), but again, much of what he was saying is very correct in accordance to my understanding. The "Down and Forward" could also be referred to as the "long and low" frame (and I think you did interchange them there) that is used to initially stretch the horse's topline in basic training (or retraining) as well as to restretch and maintain elasticity in horses who work in various degrees of collection. Yes long and low increases weight on the forehand for the fact that the horse's neck is not counterbalancing the haunches in this position, but because it allows us to access the horse's back (loosening) and beginning to engage its abdominals the weight on the forehand is an acceptable, momentary consequence as this work does not cause the horse to stay on the forehand when properly brought back into a higher frame. Of course your cue is different, you're doing it without the aid of contact. And techically he shouldn't be applying a "cue" to ask for the stretch, but rather allowing the stretch. Contact is useful in the stretch here because it sets the frame. As you let the reins lengthen the horse follows the contact forward and down. A horse that is elastic, over his back, and through will place himself INTO the contact so if the reins lengthen he lengthens and as they shorten, he shortens (collects when properly done!) and not because the horse is being "chased" or "pulled" into the position.

And I think this is where your current idea of what contact is runs afoul of what it should be. You're tying contact in with vertical flexion, which I guess in a lot of cases, and in a lot of schools, are related and linked (how do you get the horse to flex? ENGAGE REIN!), but this is where we get into relative and absolute elevation. Vertical flexion is a result of the horse being free in his poll, which can't happen unless he is truely through his body with no kinks, blocks, or tightnesses. The horse has to be enganged over his back, round in the loin and stepping under his body. Vertical flexion happens in relationship to relative elevation because and the hindquarters drop and the forehand raises the horse allows gravity to have its head and it simply drops from the poll and at the same time allowing any contact with the rein to pass through its body to the hind leg. Of course once a horse reaches this stage of engagement there really isn't much in the way of rein involvement at all. A hair's breadth away from Levade and you are using your seat entirely. Absolute elevation is the lifting of the horse's head and neck regardless of the positioning of the haunches and this is where people have to force the horse into vertical flexion because it is not possible for the horse to softly drop the poll when the nuchal ligament, supraspinous ligament, and the whole back complex is contracted (specifically the longissimus dorsi muscles).

I think you might mean posterior pelvic tilt in the case of being hollow (the front of the hip drops and the back of it rises) versus anterior, which would round the lumbar spine and raise the front of the hip and drop the back of it in relationship to each other, bringing the hip closer to the head, narrowing he base of support and collecting the horse.

Vertical flexion done as a headset is detrimental period. I think having some vertical flexion when the horse's topline is level is not necessarily a bad thing, especially on horses who have a more horizontal way of carrying their body and their necks are not set so high on their chests. Yes I agree that a lot of Western riders, even the reiners now, are hyperflexing their horses, making them deep and round and chasing them behind the bit. Just as with Dressage it's partially on the judges for pinning such carriage and not discouraging it with great prejudice. If the horse is relaxed in it's poll and over its back there will be flexion at the poll even with a level topline.

I think next time you should try engaging your legs and see if that doesn't elevate his poll better and lift the base of his neck. As you drive his hindquarters underneath his body you hit the relative elevation and his forehand should raise as hip and head always move in opposite directions.

You are definitely right that the snaffle is more for keying into lateral flexion and the curb for longitudal. Note I did not say "vertical" because vertical flexion gets one stuck on looking only at the head, while longitudal flexion refers to the whole of the horse, flexion along the horse's body from tail tip to nose arching upwards into a powerful bow. Not to say that longitudal flexion is impossible in a snaffle, but it is easier once the horse has learned how to properly respond to the snaffle. That said as well, you should be able to ask for everything in a curb that you donin a snaffle, the curb just lets you be more subtle about it because it takes time for the shank to fully engage.

Simply driving the horse forward into engagement does not always lift the base of the neck, but it can round the back as the hip tucks under. The contact with the rein and seat will encourage the lifting of the base of the neck (Dr. Deb Bennett did an awesome article in Equus about the function of the turnover and how lifting the base of the neck affects the horse's biomechanics a few years ago) much more than simply driving the horse forward. That contact will allow the energy to recycle into the haunch rather than just running out the front end, turning the pushing power into carrying power. And thus you have discovered why some contact is important: it recycles the energy and encourages the base of the neck to lift.

Conformation pictures for comparison are great. I need to do that with mine.

There's a lot under the surface that can't really be translated into words so we do the best we can and point it out when we see/feel it and some things can't be taught or theorized until the previous foundation has been laid. I think you are progressing nicely and finding good answers. Yes, if you are building hom correctly his musculature should change in a positive manner, filling out as you moted and also softening the underside of his neck and rounding through the loin.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

MiscNapier In reply to lantairvlea [2015-05-29 03:42:41 +0000 UTC]

That might not be a bad idea, haha. My email is gprnapier@gmail.com
I'm going to try formatting my comment a bit for easier reading.

*nods* I have been able to fix the nails/screws on the panel, so that's a good thing. And yessss lo' me having to have black and silver tack. Picky picky.
After riding with the HAF again I realized it wasn't the foam but the way the flimsy skirts extend over the tree that was making it look like the foam was 'giving up,' haha. It's still changed due to the weather, but no need to replace it right away though a Toklat and a 5-Star are still on my wishlist hehehe

I will take you up on that proofreading offer when I have something worth looking at! Thank you!



I'll address the hindquarter first since I refer to it in my next point- I did hear my mentor refer to it as 'disengaging.' The goal of the exercise was for inside hind foot to step over the front of the outside hind foot while the inside front foot remains planted- head position was immaterial, he was only concerned about the action of the feet.
In my opinion there is a distinction between this and a one rein stop, because it is used as a fundamental exercise instead of a sort of last resort (which is how I normally see the one rein stop used... though not always). I am reminded of a time this past winter when I hopped on Sawyer fresh, warmed him up and then let him go for a run since he had been cooped up in the stall the past few days- we went for about 5-10 minutes doing stop-trot-canter/gallop transitions, and then I had a split second feeling that he wasn't as in tune with my energy as he should be, so I reached down to hindquarter him, and despite being very wound up he instantly gave his rear without any pressure from the rein. After checking in with him in this manner we continued on for another 20 minutes without incident, me confident in the fact that we could stop on a dime if need be. 
Also worth mentioning, if were ever in a situation where the horse really was running away with me and ignoring my cues (bad me for getting on a horse I shouldn't have, LOL) I would be more inclined to use the calvary stop (to clarify: one hand on the withers/pommel bracing your torso, the other pulling back to your outside shoulder for leverage) over the one rein stop or the hindquarter because there's less risk of pulling the horse over on you.

I'm aware of the exercise you're talking about regarding Parelli and Anderson (though my mentor was vehemently opposed to sticks or whips- a lunge whip was only offered to students doing liberty work that either A) couldn't work the ropes or B) were too tired because they were letting the horse move their feet too much), I would lump it more into the desensitization portion of NH training.
Apologies for not clarifying, I forget sometimes that my mentor had his own unusual exercises and vocabulary. The 'neck stop' sounds very similar. Rubbing to a stop consists of- one hand on the horn/pommel, one hand rubbing the neck, lower your energy, if the horse does not match your energy then you would hindquarter to a stop. It does multiple things, for one the horse gets several very distinct cues to stop that are very easy and simple for the rider to understand and implement, but it's also a hugely useful tool while teaching amateur, nervous or overhorsed riders, because if you see them becoming nervous or tense or the situation escalating telling them to 'rub to stop' instantly takes their mind off the fear and helps them regroup. And as you mentioned, it is also a safety measure. If students felt like they were falling they could do this confident in the fact the horse would stop (or that they would be able to regroup enough to hindquarter)- and it also gives you a tell tale sign if you're leaning forward too much.
Looking back over my message I think I neglected to mention (you know it's bad when you've textwalled yourself, ha!) that my main cue for stopping and downward transitions is strictly energy/seat.

Oh yes, very important to note that on respect! The word has been... defiled and misused by many a horseperson. I am referring to the definition of: 'avoid harming or interfering with.' To elaborate, I have my 'personal space bubble,' and the horse is not allowed to barge into it, he must ask permission.
Interesting that you mention turning as a sub-portion of whoa and go, as I had mentally categorized it as a sub-portion of respecting one's space, though you do have a very good point about the mechanics of slowing one pair of legs. My mentor had a pet peeve about people asking the horse to turn and go at the same time (in the beginning of training, that is) so perhaps that has affected my mental filing. 



Yes I am familiar with the training pyramid, though I heard it referred to as the training scales. 
I need to go back and restudy it- I actually spent about 3 months focused on researching it when I first started studying contact/collection etc. a couple years ago, but in all honesty it seemed a bit muddled to me and nothing really clicked or hit home. 

By 'traditional contact' I was referring more the current fad of hold-face-kick-ribs that has been the only type of hands-on Dressage instruction I've gotten (from 5 separate trainers over a 10 year time frame, no less).
However, I am aware this is not what the masters, or other modern well-informed Dressage trainers consider contact. I'd label this more 'classical contact.' (and this is where all the different definitions and mislabeling becomes especially tedious, haha) This type of positive feel or as you said 'neutral' contact is of course a completely separate animal and is much more palatable in all regards.
I will preface the rest of this by saying: I freely admit that I am sadly lacking in hands on experience with this sort of classical contact. As I mentioned in my original comment I have studied it at great length and have not been able to implement what I have read to my satisfaction. This is likely a flaw in my understanding, and though I am now endeavoring to go about it in my own way I will not be surprised if I end up back at the beginning- though with new comprehension.

"All that said as well consider the difference between the feel of something initially making contact with your skin and something that has been resting on the skin and then simply increases the pressure. The former always comes as a slight shock. It is abrupt no matter how gently you initiate the pressure. At the point when the two objects finally touch, it is always slightly disruptive. Now consider the latter, if something is already there, be it lightly or more heavily, an increase in pressure is more comfortable. Certainly it could reach the point where it becomes problematic if you increase too much, but just a slight increase is not an issue and something-to-more is less disruptive than nothing-to-something."
I have heard this argument before, and never quite understood it- if for instance I am asking the horse to move sideways the preliminary cue is strictly through focus and energy, my intent- and eventually the horse requires only this, there is only my change of intent to cue him, and no pressure from the rope (either on the halter or as a driving aid). There is no need to act on the body, and the constant 'neutral contact' is kept only on the mind. The bit acts only for clarification and is at some point unnecessary, and in such case a more acute signal might well be considered desirable.

"You are only referring to the diagram (which is the horse moving from right to left in this case) and not to the actual angle formed by the horse's face and the horizon or even its own neck... etc. etc."
Yup, you are completely right on that whole point, I goofed when I was picking out the diagram. 
You bring up something interesting regarding the angle between the skull and the atlas that I had not taken into account. At the risk of pulling another goof I will think on that more to reconvene on at a later date.

"That all said, yes, having horses on a loose rein and being behind the vertical drives me nuts (one of the things I am not fond about when it comes to Mr. Anderson's methods "I don't care if the horse is behind the vertical so long as he isn't hanging on my hands!" Yeah, he's going to be behind the vertical if you CHASE HIM THERE by constantly asking the horse to back off of an ever-changing point of contact ... *cough*)."
I do not like Parelli and I do not like Anderson... and I especially don't like Anderson's higher-level work. I remember watching one of his videos with him working one of his performance 4yo- pull pull pull, jerk jerk jerk. Poor little colt.

"Impulsion is not just about forward propulsive power, though that is often what people thing, the horse's ability and willingness to carry himself and his rider forward..."
Once again, I agree completely... "impulsion is the energy in the stride not necessarily the placement of the feet" is a perfect way to put it. 

"I don't think you have mentioned Will Faerber before and I looked up a couple videos on YouTube to see what he was doing and as a reference point. He sounds quite good and seems to know is stuff and be very much of the classical school. I can't quite judge fully yet, but you are on the right track I think in looking at his stuff. I did laugh as he has a video critique of a lady and her Fjord and he couldn't place the breeding. He must be very sheltered to not recognize a Fjord when he sees one."
Egads, can't believe I haven't mentioned him before! I've been studying his work for several years now (I thought it was interesting that he, and another one of my current favorite trainers Bent Branderup both studied under Nuno Oliveira). But yes he does have quirks... he also says that 90% of horses cannot do 'real' Dressage barefoot because the load is too much for their feet.

"And techically he shouldn't be applying a "cue" to ask for the stretch, but rather allowing the stretch. Contact is useful in the stretch here because it sets the frame. As you let the reins lengthen the horse follows the contact forward and down."
He says to hold pressure in the contact until the horse finds his way down and then release to the weight of the rein, never allowing the horse to escape the rein by nosing out, raising it's head, etc. In my mind I would consider it a cue, and the cue itself the giving of the reins. (cue: 'a signal for action' 'act as a prompt or reminder'). However your point about it being about the feel, and the 'allowing' of the stretch is noted, especially as I was having trouble articulating the exact cue I was giving for it.

"I think you might mean posterior pelvic tilt in the case of being hollow (the front of the hip drops and the back of it rises) versus anterior, which would round the lumbar spine and raise the front of the hip and drop the back of it in relationship to each other, bringing the hip closer to the head, narrowing he base of support and collecting the horse."
Hmm, I could be mistaken but I thought it was vice versa: up4yoga.com/wp-content/uploads…
 
"And I think this is where your current idea of what contact is runs afoul of what it should be. You're tying contact in with vertical flexion, which I guess in a lot of cases, and in a lot of schools, are related and linked (how do you get the horse to flex? ENGAGE REIN!), but this is where we get into relative and absolute elevation... vertical flexion done as a headset is detrimental period.
To clarify, since I don't believe I did so in my original message- I wouldn't consider this a headset at all, since it is asked for only momentarily and then immediately released. The time will build up organically because - as you say - the poll will relax as his musculature improves. Though of course care must be taken that the horse at no time thinks the correct answer is to hollow it's back as he raises his poll.
If all of those prerequisites are met- the poll is the highest skeletal point, the face does not drop behind the vertical, and the back does not hollow, then I do not see the detriment in the exercise. Noting however that, were the time requirement extended forcibly, the back would surely hollow and it would then be very detrimental.
I would hypothesize that if vertical flexion 'a result of the horse being free in his poll, which can't happen unless he is truely through his body with no kinks, blocks, or tightnesses' then vertical flexion might be used to ask the horse to relax himself- much the same way we can ask the head to come down to help the horse become calmer and take himself off adrenaline.
I am now reminded of one of my favorite quotes from Branderup: (paraphrased) "When the horse and the person are coming together as one animal, the person is getting the huge body and power of the horse, but the horse also gets something from the person: the horse is getting very proud.' By asking the poll to come up in this way one puts the horse in a position similar to the one he takes when he is puffing himself up or playing, by asking him to relax his poll and jaw we keep the mind with us. This is of course not accomplished all at once, but small changes make big differences and I would think this very primal posturing would have something to do with it.

"I think next time you should try engaging your legs and see if that doesn't elevate his poll better and lift the base of his neck. As you drive his hindquarters underneath his body you hit the relative elevation and his forehand should raise as hip and head always move in opposite directions."
I am sure it will, as I have experienced it once or twice while working on Faerber's exercises (dinky strided pony does have a very big floaty trot in there afterall, ha!).
Now I'm sure the questions becomes 'well if that was working, why change?' I had the distinct impression that Sawyer did not get what I was on about, and did not understand the point. In the words of Patrick Kaye (whom is still cray cray bonkers I'll admit, though I adore him) 'I teach the horse the game, look to the horizon and say "get me there!" and then let him do it.' If the horse has not understood then I have not been clear enough, and though the horse may humor me he will not participate as he would if he completely understood and was keen on the idea.

"Note I did not say "vertical" because vertical flexion gets one stuck on looking only at the head, while longitudinal flexion refers to the whole of the horse, flexion along the horse's body from tail tip to nose arching upwards into a powerful bow. Not to say that longitudinal flexion is impossible in a snaffle, but it is easier once the horse has learned how to properly respond to the snaffle."
I like your longitudinal verbage better than vertical- I was overemphasizing vertical to differentiate between it a and lateral flexion, but you are right that longitudinal keeps the focus off the head.

"Simply driving the horse forward into engagement does not always lift the base of the neck, but it can round the back as the hip tucks under. The contact with the rein and seat will encourage the lifting of the base of the neck (Dr. Deb Bennett did an awesome article in Equus about the function of the turnover and how lifting the base of the neck affects the horse's biomechanics a few years ago) much more than simply driving the horse forward."
Funny you should mention her, I've reread and rewatched her work numerous times and have been lurking in her forum as well. Excellent stuff!

In short I still have a lot to experiment with, and results will tell- and if my hypothesis does not pan out I will have more information than I do now and be in a better position for a revised go-around.



Well I got home and started writing this at 5:00 PM and it is now 10:42 PM... so thank you for the lovely evening!
I will take a look at the article tomorrow and upload saddle and confo pics when the weather permits. It has been raining here virtually nonstop for the last three weeks and the dun pony has decided to become a chocolate palomino...

Thank you for your time and your help! I really appreciate it, especially since I have not found a someone more experienced than myself that I can bounce this sort of thing off of (as I'm sure you've gathered by now).

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

lantairvlea In reply to MiscNapier [2015-05-29 23:51:19 +0000 UTC]

You're most welcome! I imagine I'll be spending some time crafting my response! Real quick on the pelvic tilt: you used anterior to refer to both types at one point and just going off the definition I was assuming it referred to the base of the pelvis coming forward and not the front/top of it. But now we're on the same page sobitvs all good. Just invert everything I said, ha!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to swashbuckler [2014-11-02 18:59:54 +0000 UTC]

Thanks for the heads up! I haven't had the time to go through all of them, but I finally poked at some. You have some good stuff in there! It is an awesome trip isn't it?

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to MiscNapier [2014-06-14 21:55:42 +0000 UTC]

I had the time to poke at some of the short ones and I heard some good, solid things that I have heard before from other masters, like the 20 minute rule (can't remember if it was Kottas or DeKunffy, or someone else, but one of the same caliber if not them). It also sounds like he does some of the positive reinforcement (clicker training type stuff). When I have the time I'll poke around it some more and give you a more thorough assessment, but the brief impression is good! I'd like to see him working with a horse, which I haven't yet as the clips I looked at were him talking mostly.

Nothing to fear at all, I enjoy the conversation!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

MiscNapier In reply to lantairvlea [2014-06-15 18:17:52 +0000 UTC]

I too liked the 20 minute rule- I hadn't heard of it before. The impression I got from my old mentor is that each new skill would take a couple of hours at least (interestingly enough I always had success with Sawyer learning new things in around 15 minutes... looking back on it, I think my mentor was 'picking fights' rather than trying to teach his horses). He'd have us repeat the exercise (during our first lesson with it) until the horse did it correctly 3 to 5 times in a row- except in rare cases where he said the horse 'zoned out' and it took an hour or two just to get one good one. When I first started training Sawyer on my own I quickly found out I was much better stopping as soon as he licked and chewed even if the movement wasn't perfect. He would usually come out the next time I worked him with the exercise much improved, latent learning and whatnot.
I've heard of DeKunffy before, but not Kottas- more books to add to my wishlist.

Some of his ideas seem questionable to me, his riding style for one (pinching with the knees and letting the lower swing), though he seems light and easy on his horses when riding. In one of his lunging videos he had a young mare on longlines bucking, seemed like that could go bad very quickly, but he was able to handle the situation calmly. 
I really like his use of the neckstrap/cordeo, and his approach to jumping. 

Haha, good to know!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

lantairvlea In reply to MiscNapier [2014-06-17 22:05:28 +0000 UTC]

When it is a new skill stopping after the try is important as then the horse has the desire to try harder because he gets a reward for doing that thing.  Endless drilling and insisting on perfection when the horse is just learning something or, worse, doesn't have the physical capacity, whether it be strength or coordination, is asking for a fight and failure.  Horses have a really good memory, though at the same time they are pretty mailable.

Charles DeKunffy and Arthur Kottas, Kottas was a chief rider at the Spanish Riding School and I believe DeKunffy is also from the Spanish Riding School.  Other good authors/riders include: Paul Belasik, Gerd Heuschmann, Gerhard Kapitzke, Jane Savoie, Sally Swift, and I could go on and on.  I have videos from Dr. Reiner Klimke (fabulous, but you have to be AWAKE because he has a magical sleepy voice), Kottas, and Walter Zettl.  One on ground work from another former Spanish Riding School rider is Alfons Dietz (it also has AWESOME photographs), which goes from simple lungeing to Levade.  I could make your wish list a mile long *grin.*

The lower leg swinging drives me batty.  To me the lower leg should not change when you go from sitting to posting to two point or whatever else you are doing as that is your basis of support for everything else, especially when the seat is removed.  He also tends to lock up his hips in the canter and does this pseudo canter "posting."  Yes the "rising" or "posting" canter can be a useful way to build strength and stability in the lower leg, but it is an exercise for the rider and doesn't really benefit the horse, especially if you are doing it every, single, stride.

I did have a really good instructor that used bracing through the thighs/seat as a stopping aide.  I found him while trying out a horse and holy crap did I feel like I couldn't ride as the gelding kept stopping at the slightest tension in my thighs (he didn't have the best trot to sit, which didn't help).

He is very wordy, which I fear can come off as just "noise" to the horse, especially when repeating it over and over again as the horse is actively doing what he is asking.  He may not physically chase the horse as he chastises some about, but he does it verbally, which can be just as annoying and lead to less precise responses.

The "Horse Psychology" video I had to laugh when he jumped the horse and it took off with him.  i saw it coming as soon as the horse locked on to the jump.  I didn't him appreciate continuing to tell the horse he was "bad" as he was returning to the ring as it was obviously causing tension and is why the horse was continuing to jig instead of walk (in my opinion).

I definitely think there are some good things there, but his thoughts that bits are only for pain and spurs are only for pain and yet he advocates the use of two whips reads a little weird.

His ideas about horses being telepathic reminds me of Henry Blake's "Talking With Horses" (ha!  another book for you!), though I am on the fence about that one.  I think they are HIGHLY perceptive and it has been proven as we think about doing something our body automatically gets ready for the task at hand and I think the horse feels that, even if we haven't consciously executed an "active" cue yet.  Yes some people ride by "thinking" rather than doing things that are obviously physical, but there are still physical changes going on as the mind goes through what it wants to do, which is why I don't punish a horse for doing something as I think about executing the aid.

... Don't mind the novel-like comment.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to Tattered-Dreams [2013-11-22 02:56:59 +0000 UTC]

You're welcome! When I have the time I'm going to go more thoroughly through the tack tutorial. Kudos for putting it together.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Tattered-Dreams In reply to lantairvlea [2013-11-22 10:09:46 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, take your time And no problem; it was fun to do and I'm glad its helped people ^^

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

lantairvlea In reply to Tattered-Dreams [2013-11-22 20:24:51 +0000 UTC]

I've done some harness tutorials and I appreciate the work even though I used photos rather than drawing them so extra bonus points for illustrating the whole thing!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Tattered-Dreams In reply to lantairvlea [2013-11-23 00:02:55 +0000 UTC]

Thanks, though I partially did this because of my love of drawing tack, so illustrating the entire thing was sort of the point from the outset

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to MiscNapier [2013-09-17 02:22:42 +0000 UTC]

Thank you!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to CuddlyKeanu [2013-09-10 22:19:55 +0000 UTC]

Thankye.

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to blackrathmar [2013-07-08 18:37:07 +0000 UTC]

I am often slow, but I try!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

Crockori In reply to Crockori [2013-05-05 22:40:04 +0000 UTC]

And here's the final baby-pic: [link]

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to Narsilia [2012-10-21 13:46:46 +0000 UTC]

Thank you! They're quite neat and definitely underappreciated. I wish they existed in the US.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Narsilia In reply to lantairvlea [2012-10-21 16:07:29 +0000 UTC]

This breed is originated in my country There are many breeders nearby. If I get the chance I'll drive over and take pictures

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

lantairvlea In reply to Narsilia [2012-10-21 22:49:53 +0000 UTC]

Austria is a beautiful place. I got to visit for a few days once and would love to go back some day.

I'd love to see photos when you do!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Narsilia In reply to lantairvlea [2012-10-24 15:57:35 +0000 UTC]

Alright I will contact you as soon as I got some snapshots ^^

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to unicorn-skydancer08 [2012-09-18 21:17:03 +0000 UTC]

Thanks!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to Thoroughbreds4Me [2012-09-18 21:17:42 +0000 UTC]

Thanks! It was spent at a draft horse show *grin*

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to Agent-Q-Amalgamation [2012-06-09 03:38:06 +0000 UTC]

You're welcome! It was a belated "thank you" llama!

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to Ambilia-Scriba [2012-06-08 14:52:10 +0000 UTC]

Thank you very much!

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

Ambilia-Scriba In reply to lantairvlea [2012-06-08 15:53:16 +0000 UTC]

np :3

👍: 0 ⏩: 0

lantairvlea In reply to Parbuckles [2012-02-28 03:07:31 +0000 UTC]

No problem! I'm rather fond of the breed and wish they existed on this side of the Atlantic.

Random question: someone has imported SuedDeutsches Kaltbluts to the US and their site claimed that they are the same thing as Norikers. Now I'm sure they're related as the Noriker is to the Swarzwaelder Fuchs, but they're not the same breed, right? (Apologies if I'm butchering spelling, I think there are umlauts, but this device can't make them. My memory fails me.)

👍: 0 ⏩: 1