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RobbieMcSweeney — The Saxons fight the Carolingians in open battle.
Published: 2016-12-04 18:26:24 +0000 UTC; Views: 20085; Favourites: 539; Downloads: 0
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I know the Saxon wars mostly involved in seiging forts and skirmishes in woodland. I'm sure at some point small open field battles took place during Charlemagne's campaign. This is a representation of the warefare that took place.Related content
Comments: 36
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Well done sir!!! Proper (although experimental archeological) techniques shown here. Protecting the sword hand, binding the shield. The spear in the background also striking from behind the shield. No crude push and shove shieldwall but a testing of the line. I applaud you! Loving the scrama-seax.
The saxon in the foreground seems to be wearing a gambeson-like garment. Is there any evidence of 8th-9th century use?
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Thanks for the comments! 
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Indeed, been reading up a bit. Good experimental ar(t)cheology, I say!
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Vikings were using gambesons around that period, but the one we see on this great picture look like more a later aketon.
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This is REALLY good. What did you use to make it?
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Thanks!
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Thanks. I have always loved art that capture a person in motion. They are especially elegant in a pre-modern setting (in my opinion)
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Thanks
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As well done as this image is (especially with a much appreciated nod towards historical fencing), it's bugging me far more than it should that you have them using I.33 techniques since they predate that manual by about five centuries. Plus, I.33 is good in a one-on-one situation, but it'd be pretty crap in a shield wall; the two combatants are so exposed the spearman on the right with the white/blue shield could easily shift his spear to an underarm grip, step forward, and jab it into the caped swordsman's exposed stomach. Even if he lacked the power and leverage to do more than split a few rings of his hauberk, it'd still likely break a rib or two and that'll take him out of the fight almost as assuredly as killing him would.
Sorry for being that guy, especially when everything else is so excellently well done (I particularly like the touch of having the one swordsman's gambeson extending past his hauberk and the straps of his seax's sheath on either side of his sword's scabbard).
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This really helps a lot! thanks! Yeah, I was a bit worried some one would mention that the techniques are based on treatises literally centuries later. Interested to know what techniques may have been used in a shield wall.
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Not a problem. Unlike some later massed battles, earlier shield wall formations would have utilized techniques that kept the shield close to the body so as to not present an opening one of several enemies could exploit (coincidentally, this argues in favor of the overhand grip for the spear, as it lets you get over the shield, you're not jabbing your buddy behind you in the gut with the end of the spear, and you can even aim for the foot, though I think they'd have used whichever seemed better in the moment, but that's neither here nor there). This is the main reason the Romans were so effective with the gladius and scutum compared to the Germanic tribes that used longer swords and round shields: they hid behind their shields and thrust at whatever target presented itself, with counterattacks being quite difficult because of the way the scutum interlocked and the thrust being a very fast attack; the Dacians actually had the most luck against the Romans because of the falx's inward curve allowing them to strike over the top of the shield and hitting the legionnaire in the head (that round brim on Roman Gallic helms? It was developed specifically to counter the falx and provide a little more protection).
But I'm getting sidetracked. The viking shield wall would have had a little more in common with the Germanic tribes than the Roman legions, as the Migration period swords are better at cutting than thrusting (in fact, against an opponent wearing mail, thrusting with a Migration period sword is almost completely pointless), so they would have likely used short hacking blows from the sword while the shield would have been used to both block return blows and prevent their shield from doing the same (pin the opponent's shield against their body with yours and then attack whatever you can reach with your sword). This seems to be one of the two main theories on viking combat, the other being Roland Warzecha's and I believe his experience with sword and buckler provides a bit of bias in his theory, but that's just me; many of the techniques he proposes are quite sound, but I don't believe the viking shield, which could be up to 30" in diameter and potentially 1/2" thick, would be used as dynamically as the buckler because that's a lot of extra weight to be slinging around (for comparison, a modern reproduction viking style shield of those dimensions is 9lbs 3oz, whereas a modern reproduction of a 14ga steel buckler 12" in diameter is 3lbs 8oz).
Anyway, as I mentioned at the beginning, shield wall fights would keep the shield close to the body as you're not fighting one guy, you're fighting 3: the guy in front of you and the ones to his left and right. If you move your shield too far to your left, the guy on your opponent's right might seize the opening (unless he's being hard pressed) and hit you in the liver with a spear or maybe just thrust his sword point into your mail covered belly, distracting you long enough for his buddy to finish you off. Or if you go too far in blocking him, the opponent on your left might be able to get in a kidney shot. Luckily, though, your enemy has to fight under the same condition of also fighting the men to your left and right, so you're not that outnumbered, but providing gaping holes in your defense is just begging to have someone take advantage of them.
I've seen some HEMA groups that experiment with viking style combat and they found that what works for them is to keep the shield's rim aimed at the opponent's left shoulder, as it blocks off your left side, keeps your right side open enough to attack without being open, and lets you move in to pin their shield or pin their sword and using your own sword's pommel (or the base of an axe's haft, since those were more common than swords) to hook their shield away from their body, opening them to attack. Some of it wouldn't work as well in a shield wall, I don't think, but a fair amount would work just fine.
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Thanks for the info! Really appreciated! Shall keep it in mind for my next piece
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Seeing this made me remember the last living-history-battle I fought within. Do you have contact to some reenactors? Because your picture looks so real even from the "reenactmental" point of view! Really great!
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Thanks! really appreciated. I don't have any contacts with reenactors or groups. I would like to join a group one-day though. I'd love to practice HEMA.
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You have not only serious drawing skills but also serious research skills then!
Just go to a medieval fair/market/event and talk to the reenactors, especially if you find the ones doing the fighting show. They often know each other and can give you some hints where a group near your place may be. Sadly, I don't live in the UK and can't help you with that.^^
But keep in mind that HEMA is different from a fight in historical armour like for example this one: www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9Hvfb… (video not made by me and sorry for the quality). It depends on what you would like to do, and you can do both, but it's not the same.
In case you already did know all this before, please forgive me^^ - I just love my hobby and try to encourage everyone who seems to be interested to also try it
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Top notch. In especial I appreciate your realistic depiction of combat (such as using the shield to cover one's swordhand which is historically 100% correct).
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Thanks! yeah, I wanted to get the combat somewhat in the right area, instead of swinging swords all willy-nilly. Did a little bit of spear combat in the background too. That was harder to research on.
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Most impressive
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Thanks! Yeah I find the story of the Saxon's interesting too. It's a very long one at that!
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Agreed, especially since they ruled England until the Normans invaded
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Wow perfect art, but we must to help stop this war
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Were the Saxons still pagan at this point in time, or had they converted to Christianity?
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Yeah the Saxons and many other tribes still were pagan. It was a long process that took years for them all to eventually convert. It was a band of Saxons burning a church that set off the war. There were no doubt a lot of tension before the invasion started though.
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