Comments: 36
Godzilla2014 [2010-01-30 19:31:32 +0000 UTC]
The Millenium series was a mixed bag to me. Godzilla 2000 just seemed like a retread of Godzilla vs. Biollante and Godzilla: Final Wars was one of the worst Godzilla movies I have ever seen, but Godzilla, Mothra & King Ghidorah is one of my favorites of the franchise.
Orga was strange. While the Gryphon of the unused American Godzilla script predates him as a monster which changes into whatever it gets DNA from, he was the first suicidal monster that I know of.
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RenDragonClaw In reply to Godzilla2014 [2010-01-31 00:38:18 +0000 UTC]
The Millenium series is mixed period I think. The problem was really two fold: they were burnt out and outdated. They had to save the face of Godzilla after the Tristar disaster so they were forced to break the lizard out of retirement a bit early. They were using a lot of outdated tech for much of it and it showed in the third rate CGI they used in a lot of scenes. They also didn't build a single timeline we could follow, the series jumped and restarted with almost every new film. There was some innovation and some new ideas thrown around as in the case of GMK and Final Wars but they were one shots and had no prior build up or lasting effect on the rest of the series.
Lol, I don't think Orga was suicidal so much as desperately single minded to the point of obsession of its goals. Its goal being of course to become a complete being. It was a horribly misshapen creature and needed more genetic material to finish its transformation. It tried to do that in a way that against most other kaiju would have succeeded. So Orga is one of the few kaiju that has attempted to ouright devour another kaiju and didn't see the nuclear pulse coming until it was too late. The Gryphon differs by being a creature that had technically completed its inital transformation and then fine tuned its abilities as it went along.
-RenDragonClaw
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Godzilla2014 In reply to RenDragonClaw [2010-02-01 02:10:17 +0000 UTC]
That sums up some of the biggest problems the Millenium series had. It was for such reasons that the Heisei series is still my favorite series overall.
Even if Godzilla had not nuked him, Orga still would have died from the transformation.
Is it just me or is Godzilla 2000 alot like Godzilla vs. Biollante?
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RenDragonClaw In reply to Godzilla2014 [2010-02-01 07:27:55 +0000 UTC]
You know, you're onto something there. Both films have Godzilla on the war path, both films have a major villainous human character that dies horribly, both films had enemy kaiju created from Godzilla's own cells, both films had a super weapon they thought would take down Godzilla, both films have the enemy monster bursting into flame, both enemy kaiju were stronger/bigger physically than Godzilla, both films had quirky reporter heroines and in both films Godzilla falls on his face at least once.
I think Orga could have survived his initial transformation, he was regenerating damage like it was nothing and technically could have outlasted Godzilla in a straight up fight. The thing was that Orga wanted to become a 'complete' Godzilla and it tried to do that by literally eating him. If Orga had properly beaten Godzilla's head in before consuming him he would have won. Instead he cornered Godzilla and rushed it which consequently lead to his implosion.
-RenDragonClaw
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Godzilla2014 In reply to RenDragonClaw [2010-02-01 08:11:29 +0000 UTC]
And let's not forget the scene which the Millenian ship binds Godzilla with wires. Or that both films' plots center around Godzilla's regenerative abilities and radiophilic nature. Both films also have Godzilla defeat his opponent by blowing it up from the inside out after they attempted to consume him.
It wouldn't have mattered if Godzilla's dead, Orga would still be dead. He was going to become Godzilla, meaning that his throat would shrink, which is really bad news with Godzilla 2000, since his large spines start on his neck. During the transformation, the contraction of Orga's throat will cause him to stab himself with Godzilla's spines in the brain, which is going to kill him. If the brain damage doesn't kill Orga, the bleeding and other interal injuries will. Orga relies on the Regenerator G-1 it obtains from Godzilla, as it cannot produce its own, the supply of which from Godzilla would be overwhelmed by all of Orga's internal injuries. Orga would be up shit creek without a paddle. In other words, Godzilla did him a favor by nuking his ass to kingdom come by giving him a quick death rather than a long, drawn out, painful one.
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RenDragonClaw In reply to Godzilla2014 [2010-02-01 08:43:16 +0000 UTC]
There are a series of manga...that were based on the Heisei to Millenium series and the one for Godzilla 2000 presented an interesting solution to that. In the Manga, Orga was literally turning into a giant godzilla, to the point that Godzilla is literally dangling half way out of his jaws. If you watch the original transformation closely, you'll notice that he's not just turning into Godzilla, he's becoming a REALLY FREAKING HUGE Godzilla.
Also, last I checked Orga was not reliant on getting the G-1 from Godzilla to make his healing work. He already aquired the G-1 through the initial transformation, the fact that the G-1 was all the Millenian took from Godzilla was what made the transformation so mutated. Simply put, it was G-1 on steriods and allowed to run rampant. The genetic code wasn't complete and so there was nothing holding the G-1 back from overwhelming the Millenian's very basic anatomy. It didn't mean Orga was going die like a calf with a hienous birth defect, it just meant that he didn't become an outright Godzilla. Come on now, we are talking about a kaiju that had it's entire shoulder blown off and healed it right back up in mere seconds. Also, I imagine getting absorbed pretty much nullifies the issues with gastrointestinal puncture wounds. It's mass getting added directly to mass via energy transfer. That inverted throat web was glowing for a reason.
-RenDragonClaw
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Godzilla2014 In reply to RenDragonClaw [2010-02-07 23:19:17 +0000 UTC]
That creates more problems than it solves. Where does the mass for this transformation come from? Wouldn't Godzilla's shape require extensive modifications to accomodate the change in size?
I inferred that Orga relied on Godzilla for Regenerator G-1 because he had to repeatedly absorb Regenerator G-1 from Godzilla during the battle. I don't think he was absorbing Godzilla's mass, seeing as to how he was fine after he exiteded Orga after nuking him.
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RenDragonClaw In reply to Godzilla2014 [2010-02-08 00:25:38 +0000 UTC]
I was just giving an example. That obviously wasn't going to occur exactly as described in the film. In the film it did appear he was getting larger as he was attempting to absorb Godzilla. As far as I see it, Godzilla's mass would have been absorbed into Orga, the excess would have went into the transformation and eventually Orga would have found a stable size in its new form. Keep in mind that the Millenian was beyond genius when it came to genetics. The tools it used were practically a part of its own body. It had spent forever in a ship as just goo and then took a practical form when it exited the ship before the G-1 took the mutation beyond what it expected.
As for Orga constantly absorbing the G-1 throughout the fight, where was that shown? Did Orga leech energy off of Godzilla everytime he touched him? He only started actively absorbing Godzilla's genes again when he bit him. He only did that once before going for the mass absorbtion. Concerning Godzilla's mass, I think its more than just flesh and bone. Its also the energy he carries as well. Orga was probably leeching the energy off of him first as he hadn't completely enveloped him yet. Orga had barely started the process before Godzilla activated the pulse. Also, Godzilla literally charged into Orga when he pulled this trick so he didn't have many options at that point anyway.
-RenDragonClaw
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a15godzilla [2008-11-29 07:47:29 +0000 UTC]
Millenium was ok,but I hated tokyo S.O.S and G against MEcha-G
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a15godzilla In reply to RenDragonClaw [2008-11-29 19:10:45 +0000 UTC]
Yea,I still like the millenium series,Not as much as the heisi series or showa,but it had some awsum movies like GMK:all out monster attack,that is one of my perrsonnal favrites.
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RenDragonClaw In reply to a15godzilla [2008-11-29 22:54:21 +0000 UTC]
I liked GMK too. It was weird with the role reversals but it had Baragon and Godzilla was back to his menacing, mankind annihilating self. Some guys don't like that Godzilla because his eyes make him look demonic which apparently is a 'bad' trait for Godzilla but he still kicked horrendous amounts of ass and the rest of him was pretty spot on.
I was introduced to Godzilla through Showa and pretty much grew up with Heisei so those are pretty close to my heart as well.
-RenDragonClaw
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a15godzilla In reply to RenDragonClaw [2008-11-30 02:38:13 +0000 UTC]
I LOVED THE SOULESS EYES!!!,they looked so cool,It looked like scorpion from mortal combat,and the way he glared was freakin awsum(in my oppinion)
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RenDragonClaw In reply to a15godzilla [2008-11-30 04:11:49 +0000 UTC]
I didn't mind it myself. Other guys think that making Godzilla somekind of demonic beast from hell or a ghost infested vessel of destruction is a departure from what Godzilla is supposed to be. IE, a savage force of nature with animal cunning, devastating strength, and indomidable will. Complete with the hazel eyes.
The funny part is they get pretty damn passionate about it too.
-RenDragonClaw
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a15godzilla In reply to RenDragonClaw [2008-11-30 04:36:24 +0000 UTC]
they're always depicting him 6 ways from sunday.
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The-Great-MM [2008-10-08 22:34:55 +0000 UTC]
Orga's a true underrated and underused kaiju. He has his flaws, but come on, name one kaiju that was anything like him before 2000. Clover... well, it's pretty damn obvious who they looked at while designing him...
I think I liked him in Godzilla: Unleashed (and the other games) the most. He had the same basic design, but just enough tweaks to make awesome. Not to mention he uses those massive soup bones non-stop. Also love the new sounds/roars Toho gave him for the games.
When there were rumors in 2003 about the new Goji film featuring kaiju from all three eras, Orga was the one millennium kaiju I really wanted to see. Safe to say, he's miles better than Monster X and only a hair better than Megaguirus.
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RenDragonClaw In reply to The-Great-MM [2008-10-08 23:12:53 +0000 UTC]
I think I may have upset some people with my critque of Orga, which isn't really my intention. He's one of my main favorites too. I just don't want him to be hindered by the suit is all. I was pretty much captivated when Orga showed up in the games. He was tossing other monsters around like rag dolls and chucking buildings that were as big as he was. I was actually disappointed when you couldn't do the round-da-world throw like you could in Godzilla: Save the Earth.
Compared to that level of awesome I just felt that the original was just a little behind the times is all. The overall design is great, it just needed a little fine tuning and innovation...which doesn't seem to sit well with everyone.
Nonetheless I have created the hybrid and I'll be submitting it soon. It has all the originals features with some minor additions from the other versions to make him unique. Thanks for adding your perspective MM.
-RenDragonClaw
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The-Great-MM In reply to RenDragonClaw [2008-10-09 16:02:43 +0000 UTC]
Oh, I agree. Only so much stuff you can do with a suit.
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Dark-Hyena [2008-10-06 19:38:56 +0000 UTC]
I think your critique of the 2000 orga is missing the point; Orga was deliberately designed to be a pitiful creature, which utterly failed to become Godzilla. Thats why he tries to chomp on the big G; Orga was conscious of his weaknesses, and tried to fix them.
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RenDragonClaw In reply to Dark-Hyena [2008-10-06 23:27:14 +0000 UTC]
I'm not targeting his origins or his character, I'm specifically talking about the aspects of the suit itself. I found the original suit to be unnecessarily clunky, even for a disfigured alien. I'm all for him looking like a miserable freak of nature but that doesn't mean he has to stand there like a post half the time just because he's too screwed up to move much. Being awkward and ungainly is alright, being handicapped is not.
-RenDragonClaw
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JacobSpencerKaiju79 [2008-10-06 01:55:41 +0000 UTC]
I agree with Tyrantis, I say go with the original but put elements from the other designs.
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RenDragonClaw In reply to JacobSpencerKaiju79 [2008-10-06 05:02:44 +0000 UTC]
Thats what its sounding like. I need his core outline to keep him well, himself. Then the aspects of the others to smooth out the kinks that the suit put in and spice him up a bit.
-RenDragonClaw
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TyrantisTerror [2008-10-06 01:32:13 +0000 UTC]
I say use the original concept Orga (40% more alien indeed!) and add in elements of the others. He looks the most alien (and I love aliens that, well, look alien), and he's also just freaky as all hell - which I think is necesarry considering he tried to EAT Godzilla, which is probably one of the most horrific attacks on the king I can recall. Maybe smooth him out a little bit, and really emphasis the hugeness of his arms. That's always been his big distinguishing feature in my opinion.
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RenDragonClaw In reply to TyrantisTerror [2008-10-06 04:58:18 +0000 UTC]
Hmmm, thats 1 for pure original and 2 for original plus other designs. I don't know about you but I found the original just a tad boring. I can see Gregole's view point about the cluttered look of the other designs but I'm having trouble seeing where the flare was in the original. I got rather excited when I saw the concept with its thorough mix of both Millenian and Godzilla traits. The extra orbs down the neck and claws poking out at odd places are a bit much but I think we really have something there.
I'll definitely have big muscular arms. Thats one thing I'm pretty certain of. One way or the other I'll figure something out.
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TyrantisTerror In reply to RenDragonClaw [2008-10-06 05:12:43 +0000 UTC]
What I meant was the original concept art as opposed to the actual suit that it came from - the concept art definitely has a flar and looks more like the alien/Godzilla hybrid that Orga is supposed to be. Take that, simplify it a bit (it does look a wee bit cluttered), and maybe add in a few other traits (like the big honking Godzilla spines that he grew when he was absorbing Godzilla in the movie).
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TyrantisTerror In reply to RenDragonClaw [2008-10-06 13:14:35 +0000 UTC]
Hmm, maybe very small, short tentacles growing out from where his shell meets the rest of his body, or from the sides of his hand (like little half grown fingers)?
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viperdragon2 [2008-10-06 00:27:29 +0000 UTC]
i do love what you do with the kaiju studies!
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GREGOLE [2008-10-05 23:48:18 +0000 UTC]
Personally, I disagree with most notions here.
I'm not at all a fan of.. really, any of Orga's concepts. They were all so cluttered, none of them really having any flare.
The movie version was simple, but I liked it. It had an original build, an intricate texture and a fair amount of Godzilla influence. It was a bipedal reptilian, sculpted from an entirely alien mass. You can even see the Millenian influence in his shoulder and head structure.
It was simple, but everything it had stood out.
While the neo-Orga was cool in its own right, I preferred the simian posture of the movie version. It was the only Godzilla monster to walk like that. The single mutant arm rather negated that function.
Frankly, I've never met an attempt to revamp Orga that I wasn't disappointed with. They're always so horribly cluttered, so many little mutations that don't even stand out.
In my opinion, the best Orga revamp would be to elaborate on his backstory, not his design.
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RenDragonClaw In reply to GREGOLE [2008-10-06 00:33:08 +0000 UTC]
I suppose most versions are unecessarily cluttered and the concepts suffered from this alot.I could probably go with just a more true to form SD of Orga. I fully agree with keeping the simian posture, it works with those huge arms of his.
I'm kinda confused on your defintion of whats flare and whats cluttered. What do you consider cluttered and what do you consider flare or interesting?
The first SD of Orga I did was based mostly on the game model since I had trouble finding decent screen pics of him, it created this overly smooth looking creature with a turtle head. A more detailed original may be the best bet but I'm gonna wait to see what the rest of the peanut gallery has to offer before deciding. Thanks as always Gregole.
-RenDragonClaw
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