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matritum β Pomerelia of Two Nations
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#germany #map #poland #versailles #wwi #althistory #pomerelia
Published: 2017-04-20 20:07:04 +0000 UTC; Views: 12503; Favourites: 94; Downloads: 82
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Description
I've elaborated this map about an alternative Treaty of Versailles in 1919. Large part of Western Prussia and a small territory from East Prussia would become an autonomous condominium, Pomerelia of Two Nations, being part of Poland and part of Germany simultaneously. It would have a high level of autonomy, a bilateral Polish-German governmental commision would be competent to deal with just a few topics. Capital city would be GdaΕsk/Danzig and official languages would be Polish and German. Official flag is shown too. There would be two nationalities and children of mixed ethnic parentage could choose. German people could cross the green borders freely, but they would need passports in order to cross the blue one. In the other hand, Polish people could cross the blue border freely, but they would need passports in order to cross the green ones.Related content
Comments: 200
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I'd go one step further and have the ceded portion of the six northern kreise of Filehne, Czarnikau, Kolmar in Posen, Wirsitz, and Bromberg (both the landkeris and stadtkreis) added to Pomerelia, That area is ethnically German, after all.
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You can if you include a reference to me.
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Not in 1919 it wasn't, smart guy.
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Ooh, I really like this idea! I wish it had happened in real life...
, ? Maybe we should think again about how Versailles went in the DU-verse...
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Yeah, kinda gotta agree with with this one. Personally, for big historical things like that, changing it as little as possible would be preferable to me.
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I think it could still work, it's...well, okay, it's a big change, but I'm pretty sure the outcome would be the same. In our world, the Pomerelia/West Prussia region was divided between Poles and Germans ( upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia⦠...this is just one example; there are multiple maps and they all disagree with each other), and at Versailles, a plan was made to create a "Polish Corridor" between Pomerania and East Prussia in order to give them access to the sea (for economic reasons) and to let areas with high Polish populations join the restored Poland. At the same time, the Free City of Danzig ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gda⦠) was created to give Poland access to the major port in the area without transferring the majority German population over to them, so it was officially a League of Nations Mandate (basically a vassal of the proto-UN) and elected its own leaders, but Poland got control of all transport, communications and port facilities. In the end, the Nazis came to power in this state and Nazi Germany made a number of attempts to renegotiate the status of Danzig and the Polish Corridor in order to reconnect Germany to East Prussia (at one point they offered to give Poland permanent rights to use Danzig and also compensate them with other territories), and finally just invaded. With all that in mind, I think we could still have a similar history if Danzig was turned into a larger Pomerelia state between WWI and WWII...which may or may not still exist in the modern day. ?
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Well, I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to happen, but it could be interesting...plus I'm kinda biased by a love of the states in this area.
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I know, but I do kinda agree about making the treaty too soft, lest it doesn't provoke the rise of Nazism to happen.
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Would it be making the treaty too soft, though? I mean, Germany still lost a bunch of land that would have been seen as traditionally German by a lot of people (and to be fair, in a way it kinda was), and it would have still wanted to go to war to get that back!
Oh, on another note, I forgot to post this in the initial comment;Β en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Danβ¦
...pretty nice design there!
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It gives them more trading ports, which makes their economy stronger than it had been; it would've meant their economy wouldn't have bit hit quite as hard in the Great Depression, even if the effects are marginal. Things butterfly out.
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Hmm, but Germany already had other ports along the North Sea coast that would have been more important to their trade. I mean, I get what you're saying; this would possibly affect things too much, but I don't think it'd be that way...
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Okay, ecnomically not, but when they do go Nazi, they've got more naval bases, so could theoretically support a largerΒ navy, and have more naval presence in the Baltic Sea; could lead them to put more pressure on Sweden and Finland than in real life.
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Hmm, I dunno; this area was still officially a League of Nations state and kinda overseen by Poland; I'm not sure Germany could have really built up arms here without alerting everybody...
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Oh they probably alerted people, but if they did it at the same time as remilitarising the Rhineland, the Allies were likely to just ignore it as they by saying it was like Germans 'going into their own backyard'.
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Hmm, but what I was meaning was that this wouldn't have been technically Germany at that point, so Germany wouldn't really have been able to use it to build battleships for themselves there...or...gaah, this is confusing. I suppose it would depend on just how much control Germany had over this Pomerelia territory...
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Yeah, it's confusing for me too, that's why I don't really want to mess with it.
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Yeah, fair enough...hehe, to be honest, now I find myself seriously thinking about how different things could have been if the Central Powers had won WWI! A bit tasteless considering tomorrow is ANZAC Day, but still! There's a lot to consider, really...Germany would have become a massive power in Europe and had influence over Eastern Europe (thus limiting the power of the Soviet Union), and depending on how the war went, they might been able to create "Mittelafrika" ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelaf⦠) from annexed Allied Power lands. Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire would probably still have collapsed over time, unless the former was able to reform into something along the lines of the United States of Greater Austria (and not reform into a fascist state), and the latter ended up under the complete control of Ataturk. As an extension of that, the Middle East wouldn't be divided between colonial powers, and Israel as a state wouldn't have ever been proclaimed in the Middle East, but possibly would have been established in another area of the world (as per en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposal⦠), resulting in a more peaceful Middle East. Quora also points out that the United States possibly wouldn't have become a world power, and...well, the mind boggles. Certainly, with less war, technology would probably be not quite as advanced as in our timeline, unless another war breaks out... , what do you think?
Part of me thinks it could be interesting to have a scene in this timeline...perhaps as a part of that concept with all the different Ddraig realities! I mean, Ddraig did want to join the war on Germany's side back in WWI, so she'd be curious about it...and in fact, it'd be quite a shock, because while all these people who died in wars and holocausts have survived, technology is quite a way back, and Avalar itself is a tiny state in Western Europe, since it never managed to expand any further, meaning Ddraig has no way to pass her reforms...heck, she might even be female in this world too, but Alexander might not be there, since he'd not necessarily have travelled to the Netherlands in the 30s! Unless he did, and is now the Dutch (or American) ambassador to Avalar...perhaps that scene could end with Ddraig making a move on him so her counterpart in that reality with get to start a relationship...
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Eh, it's not that tastless, it's pretty topical in that sense. Then again, I'm not Kiwi or Ozzie. But, there's some interesting vis about the AUΒ www.youtube.com/playlist?list=β¦ and it's quite interesting, and does line up with your predictions.
But, what if Avalar signed up with the Germans? Well, what if they did AND the Central Powers won? Well, whats to say they don't start annexing bits of France, Britain and Italy, rather than Germany?
Imagine if King Gether marched through London, threw out King George V and installed, say, Elizabeth Chadminster and crowning her Queen Elizabeth II (
As for Ddraig herself... I'm not actually sure. I think Ddraig still would've distinguished himself (back when she was he) in the war, but his future would depend on his relationship with Gether, and any future wars, say if the French go the way of Marie Le Pen and try to rebuild the Napoleonic Empire or something. But imagine a more autocratic Avalar, spanning from Belgium and NL, to the north of Italy, Aquitaine and Asturias, rather than absorbing most of Germany and Okarthel.
That, of course, is best case scenario. Could go completely differently. Thoughts?
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Ooh, I'll need to watch those again now...
Hmm, quite true! I suppose it depends just how badly each state loses...I mean, we all know what would happen to Russia, since it's what happened in RL, and we know Serbia wouldn't be touched, as per the Hungarian demands before WWI, but if France fell fairly early (and before the US ever showed up), then Avalar/Germany could divide up France's colonial empire amongst themselves, grab a bit more land off France proper (probably not too much, mind) and some war reparations to boot, and then just let Britain accept a "humiliating white peace", as someone online put it. If things went on a bit longer and Britain was actually cowed into submission via naval and aerial attacks, then they'd face having their own empires be dismantled as well. As for Okarthel...well, it would depend on whether Austria-Hungary lasted or not, since it and the Ottoman Empires were facing collapse. If Austria survived, then they'd have to create more autonomous states, and Avalar would certainly lean on them for that, so Okarthel could become prominent. If Austria fell, then there'd probably be some chaos for a bit, but Avalar would intervene to ensure Okarthel was able to establish itself. One thing does bother me, though; I recently read that part of the German plan for the establishment of the Kingdom of Poland might have involved some ethnic cleansing...not in the murdering sense, mind, more in that they were going to resettle Poles from West Prussia in Poland, and then resettle Germans to West Prussia.Β
Yeah, I agree; Ddraig could still have moved up in the ranks, and then wound up in a position to become Field Marshal (and thus monarch one day)...not sure I see them spanning Belgium and the Netherlands, though, unless...well, actually, in this world, with the Netherlands united, it might be a bit more plausible. If Belgium was separate, I think Germany might have potentially annexed a bit! As for France...well, if they did indeed rise up again, I guess Avalar could have gobbled them up that time and...well, instead of controlling Germany and being HRE 2.0, they'd control France and be Francia/Carolingian Empire 2.0!
On another note, we must go back to that AU concept at some point...
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Yeah, Keizer replied, then I kept talking.
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Ah, whoops, I missed that...
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Might have forgot to tag you, sorry.
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Hehe, no, you did, I just missed the message.
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Heh, it's a taaad optimistic 
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Hm, yeah, okay. So lets say they lose the North, but they push west to compensate; Aquitaine and Asturias give them more presence in the West Coast rather than the north. If they pushed harder to puppet Britain, that might alienate the US so they could kiss New England and Newfoundland goodbye. With the exception of colonies taken from the French and the British, Avalar would be stronger in Europe, but neighbouring an equally strong German Empire, and weaker in the other continents, with the possible exception of Africa and Asia...
...Oh, they're DEFINITELY taking Wales, by force, if they have to. Wales really would become the Draconic Israel, between the Welsh and Draconic communities, and the British loyalists and humans, fighting over bits of land which might've once been part of historical celtic realms, completely disregarding British sovereignty to push into places like Cornwall, Devon, Hereford and Bristol.
But, yeah, I don't see Ddraig staying female if she somehow still became queen/empress, since she only did so because of Alexander, who would've stayed in America, and hate her because Avalar helped Germany conquer his family's ancestral homeland. Avalar would probably not have as good a PR image as it inexplicably does in the canonical history, and rightfully so: They tear apart a liberal republican government in France and replace it with aristocrats; they throw out legitimate rulers of the largest empire in the world, and replace them with dragon pretenders so they can steal Wales and sew conflict and insurgency between the Welsh and the English on an island which had been united for more than 200 years.
Avalar would be a draconic boogeyman to humans, but Sekeolath would do okay: If they went the way of Sweden and became more of a constitutional monarchy, they'd become the beacon of liberal-draconic society in Europe, against the expansionist tyranny of Avalar's Lucienic Empire. If Malefor was going to pick anywhere to strike and come back... Well, Ddraig might become this universe's Nightshade, and Nightshade would be Ddraig! ...Actually wait, no, that's completely wrong actually... It'd be cool though!
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Hehe, of course...perhaps they've even restored the borders of Lloegyr?
Hmm, but are we completely sure that Alexander wouldn't have come to Avalar at some point down the line? If anything, I think Germany would have annexed the Netherlands (and perhaps even peacefully; maybe the House of Orange-Nassau still rules within the German Empire), so he'd have no grudge against Avalar...and if they're pushing for improved draconic rights in Europe and have the ear of the Kaiser, then surely he'd seek to cozy up to Avalar? I still think they could meet and have a vague history, so that they could end up together in the aftermath of a curse...
Heh, well, one thing does spring to mind about Ddraig and Nightshade being in each other's role...we don't know just what happened in Europe in the Mirror Universe before the events of LIM...
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Heh, sure. So Wales becomes, like, the Grand Duchy of Lloegyr or something? So the Chadminsters get kicked out of Cheshire, but rule from London instead, and somebody gets put in charge of the GDL, and it completely divides the island's south... And Scotland might break away in the conflict; I think you and Keizer might be a bit generous to Britain; a divide like this would likely destroy them, I think.
Hmmm, right, I may be being harsh there in that case. If Germany can play it like a political union, rather than just outright annexation of the Low Countries, but Ddraig would still be the right hand man to a dragon who conquered half of Western Europe.
Yeah, LiM is a thing, but it's different to me, to be honest. LiM if Ddraig was just irredeemably evil, and openly engaging with dark magic and brutal cruelty to get power; but in this Central Powers AU... Ddraig's still Ddraig; he still has an adopted daughter he loves to bits, he's still socialist, and he's still friends with the king, just the king happens to be invading the West, not the East.If the Malefor Wars still happens the same, Ddraig might still become king, but he wouldn't be nearly as popular, as his military services include turning the British Isles into a divided, war torn Israel analogue. He'd be a good king, but a much dodgier past.Β
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Not quite; Lloegyr was the Welsh name for...well, what England replaced; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bri⦠(it's in CKII!)...so you could end up with a massive Welsh state occupying the Isles, and perhaps a few independent celtic states allied with it (the colloquial "Divided Kingdom"), and then a rump England state corresponding with Lloegyr and controlled by the Chadminsters?
Even so, Gether and Alexander were good friends in the end, all things considered...besides, if conditions are improving for dragonkind in Europe, that could be his impetus to travel there. Or perhaps he wants to expand his textile empire, and Gether gives him land to make him stay...
Hmm, true...well, there could always be two versions of this reality; one where Ddraig was good and became Empress one day, and another where Ddraig was evil and helped take over Europe...
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Hmmm, I suppose that could work for turning the UK into an artificially carved up wasteland of political squabbling and conflict.
Yeah, true. Those are all good reasons.
Yeah, true, but if Ddraig was evil in this one, why didn't he or she just push the borders even further when she had the chance, or betray Germany, or any of that? I dunno...
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Hehe, yep! I think this could be something deserving a new map being made...actually, come to think of it, why not try making it using this?Β
...it's a fairly modern map template, and so would be perfect for this scenario (and for a Mirror Universe scenario)...
Hehe, thanks...I do like it when things change, but still kinda go the same way, so Ddraig can set herself up in this reality to go on a date with a hunky Dutchman...
I figured she'd have been playing her cards carefully and biding her time until she was ready to stage a coup and then invade Germany...perhaps she even made it look like Germans had blown up Warfang and killed the Luciens, so she proclaimed herself leader and then launched a massive war against Germany, with the men of Iberia, France and Britain all fighting and conquering the rest of Europe, save for the Nordic countries...
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God, that map file is huge. I tried to load it to work on on it, and it damn near crashed my computer, or at the very least, the edited file wouldn't save or antyhing. :S
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Hehe, whoops...I can always make a smaller one of just Europe, if that's easier?
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That might be, yeah.
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Well, here's a first draft, based on this lovely little map thing:
geacron.com/en/?v=m&lang=en&amβ¦
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(I know I put the Low countries under Avalar, but they were ruled by Avalar before WW1, which was how they were able to be a buffer state between France and Germany. It can be an area of dispute between the two empires, but Avalar did rule it before the war began.)
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Ehm, not exactly. They took the Low Countries in 1937...
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Oh right... Whoops, misread that really fuckin' badly then.
"Ik zal handhaven!"
I guess if Belgium was ALSO taken in '37, that's a bit of a problem, but if not, I hope this works.
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Ehm... I did say Low Countries...
NL had Belgium before 1937, so... Yeah
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Ah... Well, whoops. Hm... Well, Belgium would be fighting against the Avalarians in the war, and would likely lose; so, either Avalar would take it, or Germany would take it, but NL would be neutral anyway.
Speaking of which.
Does this work better?
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Eh, I meant Avalar used the second Belgian revolt as an excuse to take the whole Benelux.
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Oh... Right. Okay. But here, which do you suppose works better? Avalar taking Belgium in the First World War, or Germany?
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Germany, but I'm not sure if they wouldn't take the whole Benelux there, if they had the ability. There was no Belgium, after all, it never existed. So the question is whether they took the southern half of NL, or all of NL
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