XxAloysiusxX In reply to khamryn [2009-02-15 01:01:27 +0000 UTC]

No problem ^^

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XxAloysiusxX In reply to myducksayshowdy [2008-12-04 02:28:28 +0000 UTC]

I'm talking about a fetus on which a proper abortion is performed. It is not a living being capable of feeling at that time.
I don't agree with late abortions, and I never will. But I will always support abortion, because the alternative is so much worse.
While the fetus is still just that, a part of the woman's body and nothing more, than it is a woman's choice to get rid of it. I've never condoned abortions after a fetus has really begun developing a life.
And yes, I realize that it has become a convenience for women who can't understand keeping their legs closed. And I do feel that there are not enough restrictions on abortion and who can have one.

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SuperSpongeNova In reply to myducksayshowdy [2008-10-30 06:28:27 +0000 UTC]

That is a highly biased video, which I would be hesitant to use in making a point. It is very strange that you followed this user all the way to their page in an attempt to correct them. I do not like abortion any more than you do, but please do not level the belief that choice is an important freedom to retain to be pure ignorance.

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XxAloysiusxX In reply to myducksayshowdy [2008-09-29 03:52:59 +0000 UTC]

I said the fetus, not the developing child. A proper abortion is performed BEFORE the fetus begins developing into a child and before it begins taking on the characteristics of life. Do not mistake me for a cruel being.
It irks me to no end when people compare a living, feeling, breathing infant to a fetus. And that is the distinction I was making.
A fetus does not have a life. It is nothing more than cells that have not yet grown into a life.
I do not agree with abortion being treated as a convenience, as a simple way out of a stupid mistake. However, I do agree with the woman's choice to be able to abort if she wishes. I do support a woman aborting a pregnancy by rape. I do support a woman aborting a pregnancy if it threatens to kill her.

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Azrael-Adonis In reply to XxAloysiusxX [2010-02-04 08:20:05 +0000 UTC]

I agree. Let's be frank, if the fetus couldn't live outside of a particular woman on it's own, it's not yet a seperate being.

Without appearing too cruel: 1. the loss of life isn't catastrophic for a small fetus with such limited experiences. 2. whether they feel pain or not is aside from the matter as they neither comprehend pain as it is, nor do they survive the abortion procedure. I mean, what does pain matter once you're dead. It's not like you still feel it, or even remember it happening anymore. Death is like the deepest black sleep, empty.

I'd rather see children born into a world that wants them and can support them rather than one that forced their mothers to bear them.

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BloodstainHurricaneX In reply to myducksayshowdy [2008-09-21 20:50:33 +0000 UTC]

7 months? That's an awfully long time to wait to have an abortion, the vast majority of abortions are done long, long before then.

Plus, they don't even have nervous systems until after about 2 months, so how could they feel pain at all before then? Please, rely on something other than youtube for your sources.

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myducksayshowdy In reply to BloodstainHurricaneX [2008-09-22 00:45:13 +0000 UTC]

Youtube isn't a primary source, it just occasionally serves as a linkage institution; and plenty of abortions happen during the second and third trimester. Many women don't realize their pregnant until a few months have gone by, and as you said, 2 months is all it takes to be able to feel pain. If you're going to tell me that the "vast majority" of abortions happen before 2 months, then you're the one who needs new sources. The bottom line is that women already have a choice, they can choose to use birth control or just keep it in their pants. Besides the rare occasion that the abortion has to be done to save the mother, or the woman was raped or something, there is absolutely no excuse to kill a healthy child before it even has a chance at life.

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BloodstainHurricaneX In reply to myducksayshowdy [2008-09-22 02:45:02 +0000 UTC]

The silent scream is pretty obviously just a biased propaganda film documenting THIRD TRIMESTER abortions, which aren't usually done unless the mother needs one to save her own life.

Look up the statistics regarding abortion, most of them occur when the zygote looks like this: [link]

If you're really going to tell me that has more rights than a woman, please come back and join the realm of reality.

"and as you said, 2 months is all it takes to be able to feel pain."

That is NOT what I said. I said that the zygote cannot possibly feel pain before those 2 months have passed. However, it's doubtful that they are even sentient then.

"If you're going to tell me that the "vast majority" of abortions happen before 2 months, then you're the one who needs new sources"

[link]

Are you telling me a propaganda film on youtube is more reliable than a health website?

Look at the pie graph: 61% of abortions take place before 9 weeks. The kind of abortions that are probably depicted in the silent scream make up only ONE percent!

"The bottom line is that women already have a choice, they can choose to use birth control or just keep it in their pants."

That doesn't apply when the woman is raped. Secondly, having to carry a baby for 9 months is not suitable punishment for not "keeping it in their pants."

"Besides the rare occasion that the abortion has to be done to save the mother, or the woman was raped or something, there is absolutely no excuse to kill a healthy child before it even has a chance at life."

Excuse me? Are you really saying that a woman who was raped should be forced to carry it against her will? And that she should be forced to die for it if need be? Are you seriously suggesting that a clump of cells has MORE rights than a fully sentient human being?

So, regarding the rape situation...if you have two healthy kidneys, should people be forced to donate one of them to one of the many sick and dying people in need of one right now? If not, then why the hell should women have to do the same for zygotes after they had been raped?

Please, reply to me when you re-join humanity and realize that we are morally obligated to sentient human beings, we are not morally obligated to sub-sentient clumps of DNA.

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myducksayshowdy In reply to BloodstainHurricaneX [2008-09-22 20:39:37 +0000 UTC]

go back and read what I said again.

I'm trying to tell you that in most cases, abortion is a convience, becuase YES if a woman doesn't have the decency to keep it to herself or just use birth control, which is highly available, then the child shouldn't suffer for it. If a woman was raped or her life is in danger, it's the woman's life over the baby's, but such cases are to say the least, few and far between.

Our government was founded on the basic principle of unalienable rights for every human being; therefore, it's your perception of the fetus that changes our policies. I believe that a fetus becomes a human with rights when it has a fully functioning heart and basic organs, because that's when it has a chance of living independently from the womb... Normally, we keep babies for the full 9 months so it has the proper time to develope in order to maximize a chance of survivial. If your sources are correct, at least half of aborted children had their chance at life taken from them. If we aren't morally obligated to protect helpless human beings, then we don't have morals.

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BloodstainHurricaneX In reply to myducksayshowdy [2008-09-23 00:12:05 +0000 UTC]

"abortion is a convience"

Having a child is not something that you can say is just a mere "inconvenience," you make it sound like it's easy to raise a child or even easy to get an abortion, and in both cases you could be wrong.

"if a woman doesn't have the decency to keep it to herself or just use birth control, which is highly available, then the child shouldn't suffer for it."

1. Birth control can fail
2. The "child" cannot suffer, it has no sentience. That's like saying a computer can suffer. It simply does not.

"Our government was founded on the basic principle of unalienable rights for every human being;"

Human beings are sentient creatures, zygotes are clumps of DNA. A severed arm may have human DNA but it doesn't have rights. We are not morally obligated to DNA.

"a fetus becomes a human with rights when it has a fully functioning heart and basic organs,"

What irks me is that you place more significance on the heart than other organs. You are a victim to emotional attachment. The heart only pumps blood. It's the brain that grants sentience and consciousness, not your heart.

"because that's when it has a chance of living independently from the womb"

It's a good thing most abortions take place before then, then.

"If your sources are correct, at least half of aborted children had their chance at life taken from them."

Except more than half of abortions are done before the first 9 weeks so you're being a bit inconsistent here.

"If we aren't morally obligated to protect helpless human beings, then we don't have morals."

We're morally obligated to keep beings from suffering, but that would require the being is CAPABLE of suffering, first.

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myducksayshowdy In reply to BloodstainHurricaneX [2008-09-23 20:34:11 +0000 UTC]

I focused on the heart because you can live without half your brain, but you can't live without a working heart. It's basic anatomy, not emotional attachment.

Some types of birth control simply do not falter, such as the morning after pill. High availability means you can use as much as you want. "Birth control can fail" is outdated, inaccurate, and a lame excuse.

Abortion is convenient, you never have to take care of a child. If you have the baby but don't want it, adoption centers and foster homes are also highly available.

computers don't have nervous systems, and babies aren't severed extremities. And yes, it's a clump of DNA--we all are. You're comparing complete opposites.

9 weeks is past 2 months. At two months the child has a chance at life. My numbers are accurate. Even if the mother didn't want it for 2 months, you can save a fetus by other, more complicated and somewhat radical medical maneuvers, that may not always work but are better than just killing the baby.

What is capable of suffering then? Physically, anything that can feel. Anything with a nervous system can feel, therefore unborn babies after about 2 months can feel. If babies are being cut into pieces, suctioned out of a womb, or partially born to get their head suctioned out, I can guarantee that they're suffering.

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BloodstainHurricaneX In reply to myducksayshowdy [2008-09-23 22:56:09 +0000 UTC]

"I focused on the heart because you can live without half your brain, but you can't live without a working heart. It's basic anatomy, not emotional attachment."

Wrong. You can live without parts of your heart too. The brain CONTROLS the heart. You focus on the heart because society puts an emotional attachment onto it, whether you admit so or not.

"Some types of birth control simply do not falter, such as the morning after pill. High availability means you can use as much as you want. "

ALL birth control has a risk of failure, whether you like it or not.

"Abortion is convenient, you never have to take care of a child."

Not really, therapy is required before you can even get one. Please do some more research.

"If you have the baby but don't want it, adoption centers and foster homes are also highly available."

Yes, though sometimes that is not an option depending on the woman's situation.

"computers don't have nervous systems, and babies aren't severed extremities."

Zygotes don't have nervous systems either during the time when most of them are aborted, that is my point. They may as well be those things.

"And yes, it's a clump of DNA--we all are."

We're SENTIENT clumps of dna. They are not.

"9 weeks is past 2 months."

Durr, that's my point. over 60 percent of abortions are done BEFORE that point, and that is the point where fetuses gain nervous systems, let alone when they actually start functioning the same way ours do.

"At two months the child has a chance at life."

A sperm cell has a "chance at life" too.

"My numbers are accurate."

Prove it.

"Even if the mother didn't want it for 2 months, you can save a fetus by other, more complicated and somewhat radical medical maneuvers"

Which could possibly put the mother in danger.

"that may not always work but are better than just killing the baby."

If those methods bring any risk to the mother, then no, they are not better.

"What is capable of suffering then?"

Things with working nervous systems. That is a fact.

"therefore unborn babies after about 2 months can feel."

You're not listening to what I've said. All I said was that a fetus YOUNGER THAN 2 MONTHS CANNOT POSSIBLY FEEL, I did not say that they do feel after that time. They still may not have the same functionality that our systems have.

"If babies are being cut into pieces, suctioned out of a womb, or partially born to get their head suctioned out, I can guarantee that they're suffering."

You're watching too much propaganda shocker films. That is not how most abortions take place, and they could not feel any of that if they don't have a nervous system regardless of how gruesome it seems.

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myducksayshowdy In reply to BloodstainHurricaneX [2008-09-24 21:05:23 +0000 UTC]

there's no point in debate if you're just going to be defensive and rude.

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BloodstainHurricaneX In reply to myducksayshowdy [2008-09-24 21:17:22 +0000 UTC]

Well, I'm sorry that you refuse to address my points because you think I come across as "rude." Maybe you think the facts are rude, but that's just how it is...

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myducksayshowdy In reply to BloodstainHurricaneX [2008-09-24 21:54:04 +0000 UTC]

I'm deciding not to debate anymore because this is going nowhere. Your points are valid in your mind, just as mine are justified in my mind. That's fine, but going in circles does nothing.

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BloodstainHurricaneX In reply to myducksayshowdy [2008-09-24 22:38:30 +0000 UTC]

K

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