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| Saltheria
Saltheria
♀️
[16501778]
[2011-02-08 22:28:04 +0000 UTC]
"hail the mad god"
(Russia)
# Statistics
Favourites: 2599; Deviations: 70; Watchers: 320
Watching: 113; Pageviews: 28726; Comments Made: 3418; Friends: 113
# Interests
Favorite visual artist: Bruce Timm, Jim Lee, Mark Gibbons, Dustin Nguyen, Tony S Daniel, Adam Hughes, Marcus To, Salvador Dali, Brian Bolland, Guillem March,Favorite TV shows: My Little Pony XD
Favorite bands / musical artists: System of a Down, And One, Rammstein, Samsas Traum, Lithium, Linkin Park, Evanescence, Nightwish, Within Temptation, Hans Zimmer, Megaherz
Favorite writers: Terry Prattchet, JK Rowling, Paul Dini, Gail Simone, Paul Cornell
Favorite games: Sonic games, World of Warcraft, Starcraft 2, Sims 3, Arkham Asylum
Favorite gaming platform: Playstation 3
Tools of the Trade: Traditional/digital
Other Interests: ^^^ didn't say enough? XD
# About me
Current Residence: London, EnglandFavourite genre of music: Symphonic orchestral, metal, rock
Favourite style of art: Surrealism, comic-style illustrations, fantasy, graphic
Operating System: Mac
I don't know what else to put here.
# Comments
Comments: 475
Happy Birthday, Sasha Baybee! 
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хеййй ^___^ ты случайно не будешь в первую еделю сентября в Лондоне?
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Я в Лондоне фактически живу, так что да, скорее всего буду))
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ооо круто)) я с 31 по 7 буду в Лондоне, может погуляем в один из дней? покажешь мне все. :33 че куда интересно сходить. кроме стандартных туристических пунктов.
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О, эт целая неделя. У тебя тут тур?
Можем конечно.)) Я в самом центре живу фактически, на Флит Стрит.
У тебя всё еще есть мой мобильный?
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Да, есть, если ты его не изменила)) у тебя мой тоже надеюсь сохранился?
Ну тип тур хД без экскурсий, просто сами с мамой город осматривать будем. Так что у меня относительно свободный график :3 Я буду жить на Russel Square) вроде бы это тоже где-то в центре.
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Номер тот же, да. :3 Твой есть, проверила.
У меня планов особых тоже нет пока. Ооо, хех. Я на Fleet Street живу, это в общем то рядом, там две улицы пройти где-то.))
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Happy Birthday...sorry about the clone trooper birthday cake the fangirls hijacked it.
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Happy Birthday, Aleksandra Baybee!
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блин даже не знаю, где тебя выцепить чтоб поздравить, С ДНЕМ РОЖДЕНИЯ!! xD 
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Happy birthday! You are an amazing artist and I will never get tired of your work!
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You're welcome. So how was your birthday?
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Its been awhile since you made another awesome Deviation, are you hiding them from us
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/whispering/ Yes I am.
I'll try to update soon, but here's me, not being dead. 8D
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I love your gallery!! *-* But mostly I love this picture [link]
Do you take requests or point commissions?
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Why would someone write me a comment expecting an answer, while I'm blocked by them and can't respond?
Ah, well. I only hope you'll somehow bother to wander in here and see my response, ComradeCheQuinnvara.
You did, and it did make me very uncomfortable, hence stopping the discussion.
I think I made my point as to why, though? Ah, anyway.
I firmly believe that she IS more than his lapdog. You see, there's nothing wrong with a woman willingly playing a submissive part. That's what I think she's doing. Submitting to Joker's dominant and, sometimes, violent will is her own decision, her consent. Think of it as D/s with elements of BDSM. I think she actually enjoys it. And, to be fair, the only thing that I find is undignifying is portraying her as a helpless and delusional victim. I don't see her that way. That's probably where we differ.
I'm not saying that she consents to absolutely everything, because he's an asshole and often crosses the line. But she does lash out at him, she does force him to apologise, to settle down for he knows she's much stronger than him, you know? She's manipulative. I view Harley Quinn as a masochistic machiavel - a woman who creates scenarios with them by herself, who purposefully manipulates the Joker. It's a twisted relationship, and often rather sad, but it's that of equals.
Basically, I see her consent as not a delusion, but her choice, and in my view, that makes her extremely powerful and badass. She managed to crawl her way into his heart and stay there, and he can't get rid of her like he would of anyone else, and she actually matters to him. Maybe on the same level as Batman. She and Batman are his two constants.
Ah, you see - he can't. He's a deprived psychopath. He probably thinks that his way of treating her is romantic and a way to show love. Psychopaths don't show affection in the same way "normal" and "right" people would, so anything he does should always be analysed in context of him being mentally deranged and with a very limited spectrum of emotions.
Paul Dini, Harley Quinn's creator, worded it like this: "He loves her as much as he can, he loves her in his own way."
Frankly, he can't do more. Know what I mean? That's all he's currently capable of. And that human side able to feel in the first place was probably awakened by Harley. Perhaps he'll learn, perhaps he'll evolve.
And actually, he did. In the animated series, their relationship gradually changed from an almost one-sided obsession over her boss to equals working together and causing chaos. Just compare early episodes of BtAS with... say, World's Finest episode. It's an extreme progress, an obvious evolution of how they act and feel towards each other.
What I wish is for THAT to be portrayed better. That he'd learn, that they'd develop as something that wouldn't be so repulsive to many people. As something more 'normally' functional.
Thing is, because they're both insane, they consider what they have functional. And while Harley often has her doubts, they're more often seeded by others - particularly a very manipulative, and possibly jealous Poison Ivy. I personally don't like that. I'm tired of the endless cycle of her being told how she should live her own life when she's at her happiest by Joker's side. It's passionate, twisted, mad love and it has elements of hate and hurt in it, too. It's not about the abuse, because we don't enjoy it just because it's sometimes violent. It's about the deeper, complex emotion that's in both of them. I don't like to simplify it just to her being some kinda doormat, because she is far from it.
I'm not sure if all that made sense, aaand I'm a bit sleep-deprived, but hey, I hope I answered your question. At least in some way. There's not much else to add. ^^
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Hola, wow that was a long read, and sorry for the block. My laptop "Forgot" that I canceled your name from my embargo list, but it's fixed now.
Now where's that alliance with the USSR treaty I had on my desk?
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Heh, all good.
USSR is long gone though. Unless you're a time traveller.
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Naw I'm playing Tropico 4, you're the leader of an island in the Caribbean during the Cold War and I just made an alliance with the Great Russian Bear.
You know if they'd balance the relationship and make Harley less submissive and masochist I'd be happier, maybe if they'd make her Tsundere (Like here- [link] ) that would balance with Joker's dickiness. Che Quinnvara- [link] would be Tsundere towards Joker if she was in Harley's position, she's not the kind of woman that you can step on very easely, she's actually beat him up just for slapping her.
And how about balancing the Jokerharley pics with pics that feature just Harley? Otherwise people will think "Oh gee, they're not Harleyfans, because if they where they'd actually draw more about Harley being great instead of her being stepped over by Joker".
And will you Jokerharley fans please stop drawing stuff that is unrealistic, Joker and Harley hardley had any sex so why draw so many pics of them having sex when they've hardly had any. And enough calling pics where he's hurting her sexy and cute, it's not, he's hurting her because he's sadistic, not because he's trying to seduce her.
Joker is a sadistic sociopath, which means that he enjoyes other people's misery and caters only to himself. Ever notice that he wants her back only when he has a big plan or when she could help him escape when she wants revenge on him or when he's bored? If Joker was less of a dick then maybe I could accept the relationship but since you see a lot of beating, kicking out and the fact that Joker's sadistic sociopath more then the actual acts of love makes you think that maybe he's just using her for his own pleasure.
My point is, Harley should be potrayed as less submissive and masochists and more badass, reactive and authoritarian, like Che Quinnvara- [link] . That would balance out the relationship because then Harley would DEMAND respect and love instead of pleading for it. When you plead you're in a weak position but when you demand you're in a strong one. I dislike Joker because: A- He beats up Harley way too much (Even when it's HIS fault), B- He's kinda of a dick and really annoying C- I wish he was more realistic like here- [link] because he says that the best punchline is the one you don't see but if everyoe knows him and recognises him then what's the point of a suprise attack? If he was more realistic he could blend in and suprise attack his foes.
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Just because you tell JokerHarley fans to stop doing something, it doesn't mean they/we are obligated to, you know.
We don't know how much sex they've been having because they usually don't portray it in the comics, you know. They don't give us a number. 
Either way, you kinda missed my point? Harley IS submissive. That's her role, that's what she likes to be - strives to be, even. Around Poison Ivy, she clearly gets into a similiar role.
There's nothing wrong with a woman choosing to be submissive. Nor masochistic. No seriously, those are not bad things as long as it's her choices, and they are. That's what you don't seem to understand. It's not anti-feminist of a woman choosing to submit to a man - it is, however, exactly that if you judge her for it.
Like I said, we seem to interpret her differently.
What I WOULD like to see more of is of her being portrayed as less of a victim. She's not. She's far from it. She speaks back at him, she gives him attitude, sasses him even, and beats him right back in some occasions. Actually, on a lot of occasions. I saw her beat HIM up way more times than he did her, and I'm not exaggarating.
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I wasn't telling you to stop it was a suggestion. And that's what I don't like, her role being the submissive one, and who says she likes to be submissive? Who says that's not just what Joker manipulated her into? Joker is a murdering, sadistic sociopath.
Here's the definition of Sociopath from the online dictionary-
Sociopath:
A person with antisocial personality disorder. Probably the most widely recognized personality disorder. A sociopath is often well liked because of their charm and high charisma, but they do not usually care about other people. They think mainly of themselves and often blame others for the things that they do. They have a complete disregard for rules and lie constantly. They seldom feel guilt or learn from punishments. Though some sociopaths have become murders, most reveal their sociopathy through less deadly and sensational means.
So if you know that Joker is a sociopath and moreover a sadistic one do you still think he'd have room in his ego for Harley? In my opinion no, Joker's too preoccupied with proving to Batman that the whole world's crazy to care about her, he only does when he's bored, here's a line from a fanfic I read-
Harley: "Just like he never wants to do anything but sit at his desk at home and make his stupid plans and traps for the Bat. He always puts me second to Bats, he always puts me second to everything. Heck, I'd kill to be second to anything – I'm actually bottom of the list. Y'know, if he's got nothing better to do with his time, he'll pay attention to me. He's like a kid whose parents got him a puppy for Christmas when he wanted a bike, so he watches the other kids on bikes and ignores the puppy and only plays with it when the kids on the bikes have to go home. I'm the puppy, and Bats is the bike. Not that he wants to ride Bats, there ain't anything funny in their relationship like that,"
Joker puts Harley at the bottom of his list, he hurts her for his own pleasure and likes to twist her mind, she tried to be nice to him during Mad Love and he trew her out of a window, OUT OF A WINDOW! And don't go blaming her, it's his fault, he's a dick, he thinks he's the best but he's not. He's lucky he's dangerous because otherwise all the other rougues would've killed him by now. Joker is a dangerous person, he wants caos and destruction. I know how sociopaths and murderers work.
Joker twisted Harley's mind into becaming submissive and masochist so that she would beg for him to hurt her, well gee that sounds like he fed her lies about what love is just so that he can use her and abuse her. I mean have pity on the poor woman, SHE IS A VICTIM. Joker is not a person you'd want to hang out with, he loves chaos and destruction, he loves killing people, he loves to hurt others, Harley is there to be hurt by him because he turned her this way.
Politicians during WW1 used the morale of the people to gain votes by promesing to punish Germany very harshly, Joker does the same thing with Harley, he wispers things that she wants to hear to make her moist. Every time there's an opportunity and it involves her (Like in Gotham Sirens when she wanted to kill him out of revenge) Joker says those three words to make her fall to her knees so that he can use her. She wasn't crazy before she met him, she was perfectly fine but he decided to pick her like you pick up a toy from a shelf in the supermarket isle and that's what Harley is to Joker, a toy, he can play with her and then put her back in the box when he's done.
His overall appearence should tell you that, gag items, clownish appearence, toys around every hideout, what makes you think Harley's not just another one of those toys to Joker? He even dresses her like one, he dresses her like a doll or a marionette so that he can play with her and then trow her back in the play chest when he's done.
You don't need a diploma in Psychiatry to understand that Joker love Harley very little.
(I'm not writing this as angry, I'm just explaining btw) And yes she does fight back, but Joker uses his charm to calm her down and keep her under her thumb, playing political simulators thought me that. If you charm the people in your country you can be the most oppressive dictator on earth and they'll still vote for you. Joker does the same thing with Harley, he charms her into submission and masochism, she's not like that.
Submissive and Masochist Harley isn't Harley in my opinion, my reformed Harley is headstrong and not the person you can stomp over and so are my OCs. They're all headstrong girls with a lot of beauty, brains, power, presige, resources, capital and talent. I'm trying to potray women as headstrong beings and that's what I think they are and should be, non-submissive, that's why I dislike the Jokerharley relationship.
You may like it, but I don't. And I'm a lot more democratic then my OCs, they'd all want the Jokerharley fandoms to be banned and their fans to be tortured, forced into slave labour and executed.
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By the way, next time you compose an argument, try not to use "here's a line from a fanfic I read-"
No.
Just, don't.
Fanfics are NOT official, canon source you can ever refer to in a discussion about a canon portrayal of a character. You just can't. That invalidates what you try to argue.
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Yeah I know, just thought it would tie in with the argument.
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Well, no. Here's a tip - never EVER use fanfiction, or any fan-made material in an argument if you want to be taken seriously.
I have provided you with CANON and official sources to prove my point, and you retort with fan-made writing.
It's not valid, especially if you look to analyse a canon character.
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Okay will do. Thanks for the tip btw.
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...sigh. Well, that's your opinion. How DO you know she doesn't like it? WHY would you judge her for it if it WAS her choice?
That, my friend, is what anti-feminism is. Women make their own choices. Let them. Harley IS a strong woman who chooses to be submissive and enjoys it. There's nothing bad about that sort of choise anyway!
You interpret her differently and dislike their relationship, thinking that as a woman, she should be empowered and headstrong and not WILLINGLY submissive.
Fine. Your view. Really, it is, do whatever you wish when you write/draw her.
You won't change mine, nor what me and other shippers want to do.
That's, really, the point. I'm not sure what you're trying to do by giving me textbook definitions (I studied psychology, you know), but it certainly won't change my own opinion on how she is INTENDED to be portrayed in canon. You know, by her writers.
You have fun with your 'reformed' interpretation and your OCs. I'll stick to how I see her.
And oh, no. Harley wasn't 'perfectly fine'. She was manipulative, ambitious and with clear family issues. Joker was her trigger, that's all. Becoming Harley Quinn was her own choice. At least, before the reboot, where they fucked it up.
But anyway. We differ in our views greatly, that's been made clear. It's fine. Writing is supposed to instill reaction and often different interpretation.
By the way, your OCs sound like absolute dicks if they'd honestly want the fandom treated so inhumanely just by shipping a ship they don't like. Seriously. That's despicable, disgusting and it shouldn't even be an issue.
Just... deal with the fact that not everybody sees it the way you do.
Live and let live, and let the fandom do their thing. Nobody wants your 'suggestions' for people'll do things you won't like anyway. That's just life.
I don't agree with a LOT of things, but I don't come on people's pages and tell them to stop that madness.
You clearly don't quite get where we're coming from and don't see Harley in the light that we do, so really, this discussion is not productive. I'd rather we stop it there and call it mutual disagreement.
Regards.
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Yeah, and I'm not trying to change your opinion on the subject. I'm just expressing my POW on it. Dictators force people to change their views on things and I'm not a dictator, I'm a democratic person, I respect other people's opinions but others should also respect mine.
And I do deal with the fact that people see things differently, my parents thought me that and I believe in democracy. I lived in Russia for three years when I was three and I know that you guys made reforms to change the opressive Communist ways and to bring democracy into the country.
Also my OC Che Quinnvara is the girlfriend of your country's president Vladimir Putin, and they love each other a LOT. They both have a lot in common too, they both love to hunt, fish, fly fighters, drive racing car, Putin's a macho and Che's a tomboy and look how cute they look togheter- [link] . Che uses her relationship to create distrust on the web against Jokerharley because that's what she does.
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Well, I never said I didn't respect your opinion. I just don't see the point of coming onto people's personal galleries/pages and "suggesting" them to do this and that instead.
It's counter-productive, AND tiring.
That was ages ago. And trust me, there's anything BUT Democracy in Russia right now. Don't delude yourself with that. Our president is basically a Tsar, and I wish I was exaggarating.
Well, that's wonderful.
If she wants to make hating on a fictional relationship her life's goal, then sure, full speed ahead on the train of "I have nothing better to do and don't realise there are bigger issues in the world than trying to make shippers of a fictional couple between two homicidal psychopaths to see the light".
It does make one think that you hide behind your OC's opinions while it's you who writes them in the first place. You can't just shift the blame onto an OC. You made them.
By the way, Putin is married with two kids. But that aside.
Look, I'll be entirely honest now, because I'm so very tired of this.
Do what you want if you have fun doing it, but all I'm seeing right now is you, frankly, bullying people who disagree with you.
Don't even deny it. You came onto my best friend's page and tried to guilt her for doing what she likes to do through saying how wrong it is.
While knowing nothing of her life.
You have no right to do that, nor do your OCs. Do you understand that? You're NOT being democratic. You're trying to influence others by coming onto them with your protests and attempting to argue your viewpoint - and if they disagree, you get angry and move on to insults.
IT'S. JUST. AN. OPINION. ABOUT. FICTIONAL. SHIP.
For Christ's sake.
You did that to me. Sure, you apologised and keep claiming you're no dictator, but you persist with your argument DESPITE me already telling I've no desire to discuss something which is going nowhere.
YOU started the argument in the first place. Nobody was bothered by YOUR opinion to the point of messaging you on why on Earth do you think this way. YOU are bothered by opinions of others, which prompts you not only to write entire journals and discuss it with every person you see, but to seek out the shippers and start shit on their pages.
So, by all means, please stop and realise what you're doing is bullying.
You're more fixated on that ship than we are. Do you not see that? You compare EVERYTHING to it, you make OCs practically revolving around hating on it. You spend more energy hating it than we do shipping it. It's like it's your life's goal to tell everyone how bad it is. Sure, to each their own.
Nobody cares, though. Honestly. I don't care what you think about what I like.
I responded to your questions because it's only polite, and wanted to give you the view of what MY perception and interpretation is. Clearly different from you. Fine. Happened before.
That's what writing is all about.
Why don't you direct that question towards DC? They're the biggest shippers of this couple, you know. They're the ones who created it, write it, produce merchandise and discuss it. They named it one of their top couples - dubbed it "Psychos in love".
Note: they didn't call it "An abusive relationship between a sociopath and a poor misguided angel". (by the way, Joker was never diagnosed in the first place)
They called it Psychos in love.
That's all there is to it. Go argue canon material. All we shippers do is read it, love it, invest in it and have fun. You're just wasting your nerves on trying to argue it being wrong.
You see, if you truly believe in people seeing things differently, then you wouldn't be bothered by the fandom to this extent.
And that's all I have to say.
Please, just... leave me alone. I have more important matters to think about than defending a fictional relationship from an OC who hates it.
No hard feelings, though.
Regards.
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